InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64

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{InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.1}: Name Withheld {withheld}
Mon, 28 Apr 2003 19: 58:01 EDT (17 lines)

OK, here's how I see it--we give this a pass or a few amongst
the hosts here.  Then, maybe, we can scrape something together
for the FreshPress at large.  then, we go through the exercises,
putting on our lifejackets, gather at the assembly points, test
our whistles, and so on and so forth.  If we don't need it,
could it be any more pointless than a lot of the other online
crap we get caught up in? (That's a rhetorical question, the
Correct Answer to which is a resounding No.)


I've started towards, and stopped, making a topic like this
several times.  I stop, mostly, because there is a lot to be
worked out that I haven't a clue about, or know I want to do and
could probably do given enough time, but don't have the time.

Well, it's not getting any easier and time waits for no one, so
here goes.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.2}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:19:16 EDT (2 lines) guess I'm a bit dim on this, Name. What is it you're about with this? what is it you're looking for, as to input?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.3}: Phil Burton {phil} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:24:54 EDT (4 lines) I suspect one possible "lifeboat" would be a freebie mailing list such as those at Yahoo. Just as a way of interim-ly staying in touch when the lights to go out. I could start one and make it private for FP eyes only.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.4}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:32: 29 EDT (7 lines) World Crossing has free forums that can be set as private spaces -- we could open one as a back-up home for FP, against the awful day. It wouldn't be the same as here but at least it would be a gathering spot for when we are refugees. I'm on a couple of those Yahoo lists/groups, Phil. Damn things are almost as painful as measles.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.5}: Phil Burton {phil} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:37:03 EDT (2 lines) Lifeboats tend to be painful. Which is beside the point. Someone should take the initiative and create one.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.6}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 20:43: 13 EDT (4 lines) All I'm saying is a WX lifeboat would be much less painful, IMO, than a Yahoo lifeboat. I'll be happy to create one on WX. Just say the word.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.7}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:23: 33 EDT (12 lines) Actually I was thinking we could all just meet on Cacotin Mountain sometime in the summer and work out all the details face-to-face. That would be nice, wouldn't it? But seriously folks, even though it looks like maybe Name has seen "Titanic" one time too many, I don't think the whole Lifeboat Drill idea is a bad one. Not at this point. Let's face it, Alex has been MIA for what, five months, give or take? And even though Steve seems to have some vague-ish plans for staging a Palace Coup or setting up a Motet server of his own, we REALLY need a solid plan. For some reason I'm getting a feeling that this place is functioning on borrowed time.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.8}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:27:52 EDT (3 lines) i agree about the borrowed time thang, john. you guys work something out, call me when it's doable--

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.9}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21: 28:58 EDT (2 lines) One of you buckeroos knows something about this the rest of us don't. Come on--confess.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.10}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21:32:46 EDT (4 lines) actually it sounds, therese, like just a good read of what's written on that wall over there, what with contingency plans and escape routes and fire drills...if this place goes smash in June, then it would be nice to be able to have something already in place that we could use.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.11}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 21: 36:10 EDT (5 lines) For the record, I have a MOTET up and running already. It's not being used for it's intended purpose and may never be. I'll know about that very soon. I'd give it a 70% chance of being available as of today, more so after a meeting I have planned May 21. That's close enough to June 14 that some real easy options are on the table.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.12}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23: 11:37 EDT (2 lines) Excelllent news, Steve. But we need a rally point for if this place tanks tomorrow morning, too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.13}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 28 Apr 2003 23: 29:39 EDT (3 lines) Rumor has it this place won't tank tomorrow. I'll verify that with the ISP guy, and try to find out just how much of a credit there is in the billing or if the bill is being paid monthly.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.14}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 01: 16:30 EDT (23 lines) Now THAT'S gonna put some minds at ease. But to be honest, a decent lifeboat drill might be a good idea anyway. And something happened this weekend that forced me to become painfully aware of this. More than a few Bidness Associates of mine have been using a Web hosting outfit called CI Webhosting for the past couple of years, and this bunch has always been pretty good about billing, service, tech support, everything. So everyone was pretty satisfied. Thing is, nobody had any idea that CI Webhosting was actually a reseller for an outfit called CI Hosting. CI Webhosting just rented big chunks of server space from CI Hosting, and parcelled them out to individual clients. And a couple weeks ago, they decided to stiff CI Hosting for a ton of money. So CI hosting locked down every site on their servers, and the clients are all fucked. Only way they can get their sites back up is to swing a seperate deal with CI Hosting and pay for the space, even though they've already paid CI Webhosting for it. Now this is just the bare bones of the overall story, but it's a good Object Lesson. Plain fact of the matter is, even if the bill is being paid, there are still a LOT of things that can happen to fuck this place up. And if the shit goes sideways, there's nobody around with the access or authority to fix it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.15}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 03:51:44 EDT (6 lines) But, if Steve can find out whether we're running on accrued credit, or an ongoing payment, at least we have an idea of whether Alex just dumped and ran, or for whatever reason just decided not to play anymore. If he dumped, then the need for action is that much more acute.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.16}: Phil Burton {phil} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 06:13:13 EDT (HTML) This is sorta like waiting for {Godot} Either Godot is gonna come back or the world will end anyway.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.17}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08: 17:54 EDT (8 lines) OK, I'm going to throw this link in here for reference, which is jood's "adrift" post: {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.38.1153} Now, to be more explicit about what this coming Flag Day represents: June 14 is the date through which the hosting is paid for with the hosting service that hosts FreshPress?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.18}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 08: 36:44 EDT (40 lines) As for mailing lists, first and foremost they need email addresses. So, before we settle on where and how to host a mailing list or any other details, how about we open a topic here for maintenance of a list apart from any given hosting service? I'll open a topic for it, and will post an address I've currently been using to send and receive conferencing-related email. Then we each add our own address to it. As it grows, we each then use good old copy-and-paste to keep a copy offline. In the event of downtime before we have anything set up, we can use it as a "call list," where each person relays any news they have to the next three people on the list (the last people on the list will wrap back around to the top of the list). ---- Obviously, some of us have addresses in our bios already, but a) not everyone does b) it's a pain to go around harvesting them--that's lowlife spammer work and c) sometimes those addresses get stale. Now, it might seem a good idea to just have everybody email everybody with anything they now. And maybe it is, I don't know. It's just that I like the call list idea because it keeps it more personal and distributed, and keeps the list that is getting mailed around in headers broken up in manageable chunks. The manageability of it will be important when we expand this lifeboat drill to the rest of the FreshPress. And, finally, keeping the list in pieces might not be a bad idea because there is no North Atlantic here, with not much more than other commercial vessels and a few cod fisherman. No, it's all South China Sea and the Spice Routes here, chock full of sharks, pirates, privateers, con artists, and other brigands. So, a little compartmentalization might not be a bad thing.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.19}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09: 02:05 EDT (40 lines) Sign up today {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.65} Lifeboat Roster and Lifejacket Inventory Sheet The list starts here {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.65.2-} A couple of other things I see as features of this list. For starters, it's an affirmative step that each person takes to be included in whatever comes down the pike. That way, we aren't sending email or otherwise people who want to let their participation die with the FreshPress (should the day come). We aren't, in short, spamming anybody about joining up to a new venture. And in spreads the load out--if you want it to work, you have to help make it happen. Another feature is that it binds a FreshPress id to a mailing list address. That is, it establishes a supportable relationship between the two. Granted, bios already do this, but this concentrates the list of id<-->address relationships into a single topic. This is important in my eyes in the event that someone manages to salvage posts, or topics, or even whole conferences, from the FreshPress before it goes under. In that case, there's the whole issue of You Own Your Own Words and copyright and basic respect etc. If we actually have some evidence that the email we get from someone that says "sure, go ahead and put up my salvaged posts at the new site" or "fuck off, burn any copies of my stuff that you have and never post it for anyone else to see, ever" really comes from the person who posted the words, then we can take appropriate action with at least *some* confidence that we aren't totally being spoofed, or having to play the "who is this, really" guessing games. Granted, socks here become socks at the new site, but it closes the door significantly to someone hijacking an account in the process of being ported over.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.20}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 09: 31:21 EDT (28 lines) Well I took the liberty of adding my name to the roster, although I was a little bit uncertain after reading that part about "sharks, pirates, privateers, con artists, and other brigands". Not saying I actually fit into one of those categories, but the line is a little blurrier for some of us than for others. It's there, though. I don't think it would be a good idea for anyone to start backing up or copying or salvaging, though. To me, that seems like it would be opening one fucking ENORMOUS can of worms. And I'm not even talking about this whole ridiculous You Own Your Own Words theory, which by now everyone should realize is worth squat. Once you throw your words out there, you forfeit ANY sort of control over them. And that's all there is to it. I think real problem with salvage is the fact that if you don't take the entire board to a new location, it won't be two days before people are bitching that someone else's post made the crossing while their rebuttal was lost, or whatever. Considering the nitpicky shit I've seen people bitch about on various boards, I don't think there's a chance in hell that transferring one conference or topic or particular conversation won't cause SOME sort of shitstorm. The way I see it, if this place tanks? It tanks. If you wanna make copies of posts or topics or conversations, fine. But trying to reassemble any part of this board in a new location would lead to ten times more hassle than the effort was worth.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.21}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:46:55 EDT (7 lines) Maybe not. Assuming that June 14 is some kind of turn point, I'm gonna copy the topic list from NaturalWorld.ParaScience and back up a few Topics. That way, if FP tanks, at least there's something to build on (assuming there's some*where* to build it...)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.22}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 10:53:26 EDT (11 lines) I'd also like to point out that until there's a Yahoo group or WX thing actually up and running, HardNewsCafe is a possible place to exchange messages: http://www.hardnewscafe.usu.edu/cafe/ Nan would probably have something more to say on that, but at least it would be a place to commiserate & plan if FP goes dark. There's even a "Fresh Press" "Conversation" in the "RainbowRamp" Conference...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.23}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13: 27:35 EDT (7 lines) Hard News Cafe is fine with me for a refugee gathering place. (Scooter, you must have forgotten that Rainbow Ramp is a private conference on that site and only a handful of souls are members.) Don't forget that though HNC runs on my department's server at Utah State, Barry is the webmaster. Registration isn't automated; he does that too. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.23}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 13: 27:35 EDT (7 lines) Hard News Cafe is fine with me for a refugee gathering place. (Scooter, you must have forgotten that Rainbow Ramp is a private conference on that site and only a handful of souls are members.) Don't forget that though HNC runs on my department's server at Utah State, Barry is the webmaster. Registration isn't automated; he does that too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.24}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14: 10:32 EDT (25 lines) A very good point. I expect that, whatever we do, there's going to be some dispersion, people checking out different sites on their own, words and people that never see shore again, that sort of thing. >> more hassle than the effort was worth I expect you're probably right about this, but after all it's a call to be made by whoever is undertaking the hassle, really. Speaking of HNC, it runs version 3 of COW. COW has a feature called "hidden" that works a little differently than the Motet one: If a post is "hidden" no one can see it until it is unhidden-- you can't just click on the (hidden) bit and have it show the post. If we ported content to COW, it might be possible to set as COW-hidden every post for which we don't have permission to display. That way, the skeleton of the topic could be ported as a scaffold and example for future conferences and topics and posts, and however much "flesh" we get permission to port over, is gravy. But that assumes the stuff gets copied in some useable state, which is a big IF at this point.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.25}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 14:53:15 EDT (13 lines) >Hard News Cafe is fine with me for a refugee gathering place. (Scooter, you must have forgotten that Rainbow Ramp is a private conference on that site and only a handful of souls are members.) Don't forget that though HNC runs on my department's server at Utah State, Barry is the webmaster. Registration isn't automated; he does that too.< That might cause some friction, but I assume you might "direct" that a Conference be opened, or that registrations take place, past bad mojo notwithstanding if it came to that... Or not?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.26}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15:06:01 EDT (23 lines) I've just gotten a new set of glasses, and am having difficulty seeing the board just now. These are not my computer glasses, so they dont work as well as the others for this. So all I{'m gonna say is, John has a point, if you want to mess with a mailing list fine with me, I have no idea what it does or why but then you are the tech guys and I'm not-- And I wonder if the December "last visited date" for Alex, Dec. 14, was a coincidence or not, seeing as how June 14 is not only flag day, but exactly 6 months since he left... work out the details, I'll play devilsfood advocate now and then, and let's see what happens. Nan, I'm not familiar with the workings of HNC, only that it exists; if we moved over there, would it be our own,(I guess you call it) server space? In other words, we would be on our own recognizance, as to running the joint? I know this is a dumb-assed question to the rest of you, but it isn't to me, and you only learn by asking the dopey questions outloud, sometimes.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.27}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15: 26:40 EDT (20 lines) >> That might cause some friction, but I assume you might "direct" that a Conference be opened, or that registrations take place, past bad mojo notwithstanding if it came to that... Or not? << I could ask Barry to create a new conference but I couldn't create it myself. As the sysadmin and creator, Barry would have access. I'm raising these points because some people here have issues with that. >> Nan, I'm not familiar with the workings of HNC, only that it exists; if we moved over there, would it be our own,(I guess you call it) server space? In other words, we would be on our own recognizance, as to running the joint? << We couldn't move the whole FreshPress permanently to HNC because it's just too big, not to mention pretty much private. The only BIG stuff on Hard News Cafe is open to the public, which is as it should be since it's all running on resources paid for by state government money.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.28}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Tue, 29 Apr 2003 15: 36:00 EDT (13 lines) Who knows Unix? I'll give someone MOTET admin on my site to get things turned on and up enough that everyone can register. Or if you like, I'll create the accounts. What I haven't done is work through the brain farts to figure out how to set up the sign up page, the auto email of passwords, etc. and quite frankly don't have the time right now. Name, if you want to take it on, I'll get you access to the shell and all, or anyone else who might know how to do the stuff.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.29}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01: 29:30 EDT (3 lines) I'm sure I could do it, but to be honest? You'd have to be a fucking fool to give me that kind of power.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.30}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 01: 47:30 EDT (1 line) I'm a fucking fool. You wanna shot at it?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.31}: Name Withheld {withheld} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 05: 41:03 EDT (18 lines) The "you" in post {29} is probably best interpreted in the plural sense. I would be hesitantly willing to take a further look at the situation. I say hesitant because I've just now scouted it out a little more and the computer running the web server and copy of Motet is not what I was originally assuming it would be (ie, I thought maybe you took the plunge and booted up a Linux box there in your house or office on cable or DSL or ISDN or something where you would have complete access to the system the site would run on, but instead it looks like you've got a virtual web host deal with a third party). It isn't necessarily better or worse one way or the other, just that there are more limits on the applicability of one's Unix skills in a virtual hosting situation, depending on exactly what the deal is. So, I could take a look too, but I make no representations as to the wisdom or foolishness of letting me do so.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.32}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09: 15:49 EDT (8 lines) That goes double for me. Like, all of it except for the part where Name thought the software was running on it's own box. I had it figured for a third-party server right from the start. I'm not exactly a Unix guru, but shoot me the particulars and I'll see what I can do over the weekend.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.33}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09: 28:31 EDT (4 lines) Okay. Name you alread have a working ID. I'll set one up for Sknok, drop the login/password info for the shell and Motet admin account into a private forum and we can talk about what the site needs. I'll try and get that done today and let you know when it's set up.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.34}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09: 33:28 EDT (38 lines) Roger that. Yes, I'm chanelling Phantom today.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.35}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10: 31:37 EDT (1 line) Hope this helps...out

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.36}: Phil Burton {phil} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:04:32 EDT (1 line) Anyone want help with HTML I am here.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.37}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11:06:50 EDT (5 lines) um, Phil, there has been a request in chaos for you to turn the mvving graphics off. I guess for some machiknes it makes for a very slow load... couple people are having problems with the bouncing critters

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.38}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11: 16:17 EDT (1 line) Thanks Phil. Probably will need some help there.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.39}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 11: 41:06 EDT (6 lines) Personally I'm okay on HTML, but if anyone can tell me which wire to cut on a 1987 Signature Series Lincoln Town Car to disable the circuit that makes all the doors automatically lock whenever I throw it into "drive"? I'd really appreciate it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.40}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12: 38:49 EDT (2 lines) Are you planning to leap or throw someone from your Lincoln while it is in motion?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.41}: Sunrise {rich} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:48:47 EDT (1 line) Skonk, when you put it into drive, unlock'm. Works for me.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.42}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13: 31:47 EDT (1 line) LOL! Too easy, Rich.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.43}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13: 36:43 EDT (4 lines) Okay, skonk and name, there is an account for each of you and a new forum where we can get started. See ya.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.44}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13: 48:06 EDT (10 lines) I bought this new Motet to see if I could get my joint venture partner to use something besides email. That's why the link to it now is our company name. I own the license and can change the name when we are ready to go live, which means we gotta come up with a name, I gotta register it, and so on. So, any ideas about names of the site, what we might want the site to offer, etc. is also in order now.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.45}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13: 52:29 EDT (9 lines) I think what I'll do, if my corporate partners want to use this stuff, is build a Unix box, buy another copy, and run it from our internal network. What that means is, the copy running at the ISP is now offically donated to the cause of madness we all seem to have. If FP survives, with or without Alex, and we can get the controls, we don't need the other one, but what the heck, it can be used for some evil or other. If not, it's there for the full monty.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.46}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13: 55:12 EDT (6 lines) Can you tell us a little bit more about what you want to happen at the new motet site, Steve? I am sure you have an idea of what you would kind of board you would like to bankroll. Could we hosts contribute financially? Are you going to invite any old body or are you going to stick with the current EffPee'ers? And on and on and on...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.47}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14: 03:53 EDT (1 line) Cat's Corner sounds like an excellent name to me.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.48}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14: 12:11 EDT (2 lines) Therese's Garden sounds pretty good, too. But it is hard to know what to call it if we don't know the intent of the Master in charge.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.49}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14: 14:02 EDT (19 lines) >Can you tell us a little bit more about what you want to happen at the new motet site, Steve?< I'm open for ideas. >I am sure you have an idea of what you would kind of board you would like to bankroll.< Sorry, I don't. >Could we hosts contribute financially?< Okay. >Are you going to invite any old body or are you going to stick with the current EffPee'ers?< I'm open for suggestions. However, I don't personally have any objections to the place being wide open.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.50}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14: 15:32 EDT (1 line) Steve volunteers for a massive headache. Story at 11.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.51}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 14:17:23 EDT (9 lines) Or we could just call it Fresh Press II so as to not cause any more confusion than we already do Ms.Mitten's Emporium, Bar & Grill is pretty nifty too although maybe a tad long for the letterhead it would be nice to start with what we got and let it shape itself...if you're open to suggestions. Most times that's what happens anyway, and it seems to work best with that light hand.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.52}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15: 06:44 EDT (HTML) Welcome to Whorehouse of the Bloody Bowel!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.53}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:27:23 EDT (1 line) THAT will bring in the crowd... {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.53}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 15:27:23 EDT (1 line) THAT will bring in the crowd...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.54}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:10:36 EDT (10 lines) Wait, wait, I've got an idea... how about FreshPressPlanet? or HomePress? or PlanetPress? FreshHome? No? Skonk doesn't like them. I can tell.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.55}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16: 26:15 EDT (1 line) FreshForms, a wholly owned subsidiary of SpecFormliners...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.56}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16: 37:11 EDT (1 line) United CementHeads

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.57}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16: 41:50 EDT (1 line) check your stupid email, skonk.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.58}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16:51:38 EDT (8 lines) While all of the suggestions for names so far have a certain cachet, I happen to think "FX's Playpen" would bring a level of clientel and a naughty mix of sock registrations, multiple postings, overnight topic creation and mass erasures that would raise the excitement level to almost unbearable heights... OTOH: could someone remind me why June 14 is a crunch date of some kind?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.59}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 16: 56:38 EDT (1 line) Six months of no Alex. His last sign on here was Dec 14, 2002.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.60}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17: 00:55 EDT (4 lines) He may have his own sock and be lurking like a pervert in the shadows. If so: Alex, do you see all the trouble you are causing?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.61}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:07:28 EDT (2 lines) isn't it one of those due dates for the yearly bill or something boring like that?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.62}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17: 09:21 EDT (6 lines) Just checked my inbox, Steve. Only stupid mail I found was a letter from you. HAR DEE HAR!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.63}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17: 12:54 EDT (3 lines) No Judy. It's a deadline we all agreed to here a few months ago. We decided we'd wait until then before we pressed to take over the account stuff.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.64}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:14:20 EDT (2 lines) okay thanks

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.65}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17:27:20 EDT (8 lines) "June 14": Well, if Senor Delacruse *is* paying the tab and yet for reasons best known to himself isn't "apparently present," that's different from FP having an "expiry date" isn't it? Yesdeer, did you say you were going to contact the server provider for FP and check on the financials?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.66}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 17: 31:42 EDT (1 line) I sent an email, no response yet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.67}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20: 05:53 EDT (38 lines) -----Original Message----- From: info@rietta.com [mailto:info@rietta.com] Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 5:05 PM To: Steve Deering Subject: Re: The Fresh Press Steve, Alex is still sending the check. Why do you not put together an "official" letter requesting admin privileges from Alex and I will forward/mail it to his physical mailing address. Best regards, Frank Rietta On Mon, 2003-04-28 at 23:38, Steve Deering wrote: Frank, can you > tell me if the monthly billing is being paid for The Fresh > Press or if there is a credit being worked off? More > specifically, how long does FP have before it will be shut > down? > > > > Folks are getting spooked. I want to say again that I agree to pay the fee to keep it rolling. And we will want to reset the admin password so the system can be functional. How long, in your > opinion, is Alex&#700;s absence required before the group can have access to > the software tools of the system? > > > > Steve > > > >

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.68}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20: 08:11 EDT (5 lines) The class assignment is to write a 500 word essay on "Alex is fucking with us and we aren't gonna take it anymore" Best of the class gets forwarded to Frank.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.69}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 20: 24:04 EDT (15 lines) Yo Frank, I got a better idea. How's about you trying to be a little more cooperative before someone comes over there and breaks your fucking face for you? In case you don't realize it, we got NERVOUS PEOPLE who are ON THE RAGGED EDGE here, and this is NO TIME TO BE FUCKING AROUND! Gimme access to the Motet handle, or Therese "The Hammer" Borden comes by your house. And then we see how you like sucking Slim-Fast through a straw for six fucking weeks. Sincerely, Judy Thompson

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.70}: Steve this is your fault {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:09:00 EDT (2 lines) well, I think I mighta been a bit more forceful here and there, but yeah, basically, that's about it

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.71}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:16:49 EDT (14 lines) Dear Frank We need our board back. Alex is/was a damn fine admin, but he seems to have given up on it, for whatever reason, and we really need the freedom to grow, to become part of the vision and plan that Alex wanted. We can't do that the way things are now, because growth on a closed board is impossible. Sooner or later the air gets musty, people start to leave, and it dies. I dont want to see that happen. This is a bright, funny, good bunch of people, and they deserve the best message board we can give them. So do we. Anything you can do to help would be most appreciated Judy Thompson

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.72}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:20:28 EDT (27 lines) Well, Mitts, IMO that's a fine sensible letter and might even work. But that's never stopped me from trying unworkable alternatives. You gits more flies with honey than with vinegar, as my Great Aunt Griselda used ta say. How's 'bout this (apologies in advance): "Dear Alex, we all miss you terribly, but I in particular have a trunkload of boofles saved up if only you will show your shining visage at FP now that the grue has gone away." "Or, a barrel-load of boofles, if you have truly tired of us & will turn FP over to Skonk (whom I have always secretly admired) so that he can rename it "CacoPress" and bring his inimitable influence to all (HomeCaco, InfoCacoTexture, Caco Plaza, &c., &c.) that we do." "Waiting with dewy anticipation, xoxoxoxox Fi" Huh, huh?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.73}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:22:21 EDT (1 line) barf

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.74}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21: 31:02 EDT (1 line) That second one was okay.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.75}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21: 51:56 EDT (9 lines) Dearest Alex, I promise never to be surly or profane again, if only you will come back to Fress Press. I will give you back rubs and a pedicure. And I will write some posts that will make you laugh so hard, your remaining hair will fall out. In fact, I will do ANYTHING to get you to come back. Anything at all. Yours sincerely, John Pelligrino

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.76}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 21:55:44 EDT (1 line) send it, Steve

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.77}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22: 01:38 EDT (6 lines) Alex is well aware of the state in which he has left FP. He knews auto reg is off. He knows no one new can enter. He knows that anyone fouling up their password is out for good. He knows all this. So why the HELL doesn't he care??? Sorry. That just slipped out involuntarily.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.78}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22:05:46 EDT (13 lines) sometimes a little part of me says, he's lurking, he's watching, he's curious as to how we handle ourselves without an admin to hold our collective and individual hands, a kind of test, a study of human nature, just the kind of thing he was fond of doing. Let's see what they'll do, he'd say. See how far they'll push it this time... Another part of me thinks he just had enough, realized that there was a world out there, and walked away from it, knowing we'd manage somehow. Beyond that, we may never know.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.79}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 22: 29:22 EDT (11 lines) Dear Alex, You've go until June 14 to either show up and manage FP or turn over the Motet/shell account. If you fail to respond to this formal request with either option, we will be forced to track your ass down and shit in your hat. There are at least 15 of us, so you're in for a lot of shit. We're done messing around with being nice about this. Your friend, Barry Kort

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.80}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 30 Apr 2003 23:06:13 EDT (1 line) I cna't do it. It would be too cruel

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.81}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 01 May 2003 00: 55:40 EDT (1 line) Not as cruel as shitting directly on his head.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.82}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 01 May 2003 02:33:40 EDT (21 lines) post:79 made me laugh out loud. "Dear Alex, we all miss you terribly, but I in particular have a trunkload of boofles saved up if only you will show your shining visage at FP now that the grue has gone away." "Or, a barrel-load of boofles, if you have truly tired of us & will turn FP over to Skonk (whom I have always secretly admired) so that he can rename it "CacoPress" and bring his inimitable influence to all (HomeCaco, InfoCacoTexture, Caco Plaza, &c., &c.) that we do." "Waiting with dewy anticipation, xoxoxoxox Fi" I can go with this.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.83}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 01 May 2003 05:23:28 EDT (17 lines) Dear Frank, I believe that the interests of Fresh Press would be best served by a totally different management style altogether, and it would be in the best interests of the board and the posters alike if several of the hosts were removed, the more obstreperous posters booted out, and the remainder of the site panelled up until the flame wars settled down, the hosts were made to understand that this is NOT their board, but the admin., and order has been restored. Therefore I am asking that you turn control of Fresh Press over to the Speakeasy management, where I can assure you the gentle touch of the webmaster and her henchmen will have that place shipshape in no time flat. Just look at what she's done for Speakwasy! Dana Davis {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.83}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 01 May 2003 05:23:28 EDT (17 lines) Dear Frank, I believe that the interests of Fresh Press would be best served by a totally different management style altogetber, and it would be in the best interests of the board and the posters alike if several of the hosts were removed, the more obstreperous posters booted out, and the remainder of the site panelled up until the flame wars settled down, the hosts were made to understand that this is NOT their board, but the admin., and order has been restored. Therefore I am asking that you turn control of Fresh Press over to the Speakeasy management, where I can assure you the gentle touch of the webmaster and her henchmen will have that place shipshape in no time flat. Just look at what she's done for Speakwasy! Dana Davis

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.84}: Name Withheld {withheld} Thu, 01 May 2003 09: 57:56 EDT (26 lines) OK, I've taken a peek in at the other Motet site's new conf. This letter from Frank is encouraging. The proposed letters, though amusing and good for getting the creative juices flowing, are only marginally getting us to the no-nonsense kind of thing that we should forward through Rietta if we want to ensure that Rietta is willing to continue working with us--we don't want to disrespect his time and attention in helping us port over the FreshPress, if indeed that is an option on the table. So, whatever the letter says or asks, I think that's at the top: Is turning over financial and administrative responsibility for the FreshPress an option from Alex's perspective? If so, to whom does it get turned over too? That "who" is the sticky bit here. It's a question of identity, personal and small-c corporate. For some background on my thoughts on this, see {LuCreAtivity.11.1-} Is there *anyone* here who think it worth at least exploring the idea of creating a holding corporation for the current FreshPress corpus, to which control of the current site could be transferred, or over which could be exercised control of any new venture? It could be either for-profit or non-profit, I don't much care.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.85}: liner notes {judy98} Thu, 01 May 2003 10:10:45 EDT (19 lines) Of course, the bottom line is, is Alex able or willing to let go of ownership? Do we want to rip it away from him, if the answer is no? Aside from that, I think a holding corporation might be a good idea. If there is any need for $$ contributors to any of this, to make it go, count me as a willing member. I would almost think that if you start with non-profit, your expectations are minimal, and the stress involved with starting this kind of thing up would be lowered. Once it's established, maybe then think about the idea of a profit venture, but only later. The idea of a single owner has a certain appeal, but it might be a wise idea to have at most a three-pronged ownership, so that if one person decides to back out, the board is not left dangling by a raveled thread, again. I dont know it that would work, but that way one partner could be the 'identity" guy...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.86}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 01 May 2003 10: 23:22 EDT (2 lines) Alex already offered FP for sale once. That may be the answer. Let's make him an offer.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.87}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 01 May 2003 10: 49:43 EDT (33 lines) Well I don't think we have to spend much time worrying about the ethicality of "ripping this place away from" Alex. Because I don't think it's possible. After all, he owns the place lock, stock, and barrel. So this Rietta guy would be fucking nuts to give access to someone without Alex's express permission. That would be like a locksmith letting a stranger into your house just because they said they wanted in. Lotsa liability involved, there. As far as I could see, all this guy offered to do was forward a letter to Alex. And he's being a good sport just doing that, because as long as the bill is being paid, why should HE give a shit what goes on here? Now, making Alex an offer for the place is another story. That's maybe doable. But in order to even try, we'd have to Open A Dialogue with him. And if we could do that, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, now would we? I don't know, all this brainstorming about how to deal with this place seems kinda nonproductive to me. No matter what approach we can think of, it'll involve getting in touch with Alex. Because this is HIS board. Once someone accomplishes that, MAYBE we'll have enough info to figure something out. But until then we don't know if he wants to sell, or if he's just taking a break, or WHAT the fuck is going on. As far as I can see, it boils down to this: If Alex wanted to be in touch, he would be. There are a dozen ways he could do it, so I think it's safe to say he don't WANNA be in touch. And as long as that's the case, trying to figure out What To Do About Admin Access and whatnot it pretty pointless.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.88}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 01 May 2003 11: 05:50 EDT (7 lines) Yep. Still, a letter stuffed into a monthly billing can't be too big a waste of time. I suggest it be simple, as in "Alex, we want the keys to FP, what's it gonna take." The end.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.89}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 01 May 2003 11: 33:58 EDT (14 lines) That sounds like the best, and probably the only approach that might work. Something else just occurred to me too. Even if Rietta the Sysop decided that he wanted to turn the place over to someone else? I don't think he could do it. My guess is the guy has access to server-level shit and Unix passwords and whatnot, but no admin access to the Motet software itself. And since the password file is encrypted, someone would have to crack it to get admin privileges. Of course Bryan Higgins might be able to do it. Matter of fact, I'd be amazed if he didn't already have a back door built in, just in case the admin died or something. But to get him to use it, we'd prolly have to show him a notarized death certificate or something.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.90}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 01 May 2003 11: 50:22 EDT (2 lines) I have the Motet account password reset command that the Sysop would have to run.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.91}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 01 May 2003 13:50:01 EDT (56 lines) Okay, serious attempt to satisfy Name: Dear Alex It's been quite a while since any of us last heard from you either on the Fresh Press or through e-mail. We've tried hard to respect your previously mentioned request not to attempt to track you down if you 'disappeared' from the board. However, those of us who are still engaged with Fresh Press regularly are starting to worry about the long term prospects of having a completely closed board with no new registrations and no evident administrator. We like the place you created and we'd hate to see it wither away to nothing. So, the hosts have come up with a couple of suggestions for your consideration. Frank Rietta has kindly agreed to forward these to you on our behalf. First, is the possibility of you transferring the administration controls to one of us; Steve has volunteered, and there may be one or two others who might also be willing. Incidentally, Steve is also willing to take over the financial cost of running the board if you wanted to divest that as well. Transferring admin controls would at least allow us to open the board to fresh registrations, which we definitely need, and give someone else the headache of monitoring socks, etc. Second, is that we purchase the Fresh Press from you in its entirety. You may not be willing to go this route, but the suggestion is on the table as we are operating in a vaccuum without your input at this point. However, if you were interested in selling, we would have to discuss amongst ourselves what party would take ownership. Name has suggested doing this through a company vehicle, so we'd need to look at that and make a decision before proceeding. Of course, I think most of us would genuinely prefer to have you back as admin, even if it were without you participating at the level you were here formerly. But since that seems unlikely at this point, we are trying to come up with solutions that would work for you and us. Finally, we are also somewhat concerned by the fact that the domain registration for thefreshpress.com is due for renewal in July this year. If you don't intend to renew it, we would appreciate some warning so that we can arrange to regroup in another form somewhere else. We believe that Frank would also forward a message to us, through Steve, if you wanted to contact us that way. Hoping you're well and happy, Fresh Press Hosts (and then sign it with the names of all the hosts who have added their names to the Lifeboat list.)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.92}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Thu, 01 May 2003 14: 28:46 EDT (1 line) Nice job, Fi.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.93}: Sunrise {rich} Thu, 01 May 2003 15:08:33 EDT (1 line) Well done, Fi.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.94}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 01 May 2003 15: 13:24 EDT (3 lines) Very good job, Fi. I still think we should threaten to shit in his hat, though.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.95}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Thu, 01 May 2003 19: 27:38 EDT (11 lines) Whoa, whoa, whoa, signing my name on something that says I'm buying something else doesn't quite go with my personal agendas. Would I like someone live to have keys to the place? Sure, why not? Do I care enough to make it economic? Not with money the way it is. I signed up to keep in touch, not to be a member of a coup d'etat. I don't want the controls. I don't want to spend any money ("we purchase the Fresh Press from you in its entirety."). I'm not _against_ what you're saying at all, Fi, I just don't want it to look like I'm signing up for a committment I will clearly not honor.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.96}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 01 May 2003 19: 43:02 EDT (6 lines) I wouldn't worry about it too much if I were you, slugger. The way I see it we're one HELL of a long way from talking money right now. Let's let the situation develop a little before opening that whole can of worms, okay? Shit, for all we know he'll never even see the letter.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.97}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 01 May 2003 19:46:29 EDT (9 lines) Maybe I read it wrong, but I dont think that would be the case, Hannibal. I signed up for the same reason, to keep contact should something happen here... beyond that seems to me to be a new level of commitment. John, that's my feeling, too. I dont think he's reading anything, anywhere, in email.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.98}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Fri, 02 May 2003 01:09:07 EDT (5 lines) I like Fi's draft... It's not a commitment anyways: it's an inquiry. I'm okay with it as is.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.99}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Fri, 02 May 2003 03:25:21 EDT (29 lines) Thank you, Scooter. I worded it quite carefully actually; I am a business administrator in real life and write stuff like this all the time. It says that if Alex * were* interested in selling, we would have to discuss among ourselves what that might entail, and *who* would be the purchaser. The only thing the hosts are *signing* to is the inquiry as to what Alex's intentions are. There is absolutely no commitment implied. And in any case, if you don't want your name on it, we'll just take it off. Incidentally, Frank Rietta's message said that he would forward a letter to Alex's real life address, not his email. And, it's true that we may not get a reply. That doesn't absolve us of the courtesy of trying before we make any moves anywhere else. This is the first time we have tried to contact Alex with proposals for the future of Fresh Press, rather than just saying, "come back we miss you and need you to open the board." Frankly, whatever he's got going on in his life, I think he probably also owes us the courtesy of a reply. Some of us have invested a lot of time and effort in this place and that should count for at least a little consideration. Let's be honest, it would be a lot better and easier NOT to have to move elsewhere at all. Sending the message and seeing if we get any response doesn't preclude moving elsewhere.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.100}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 05:47:01 EDT (9 lines) I'd hate to move, too. Granted, on one level it's just a space in the middle of nowhere, but dammit, it's our space and we know which drawer the forks are kept in, and where to look when the towels run out in the ladies room... A move might also cost us people, many of whom have just gotten settled in. I'll go anywhere, probably, (suddenly feeling like a camp follower), but I'd prefer to stay here.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.101}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 02 May 2003 07:33:45 EDT (9 lines) I would like to know Alex's intentions before anything else. If he is truly done with FP, then I would think we should begin copying stuff we want to keep and let the thing go. And if Steve wants to start another place (for which we hosts might want to kick in some funds to help him get it going and/or maintain it), that would be great. But it wouldn't be Fresh Press anymore. It would be a new place, with Steve as the Big Guy, with Steve's own preferences and "rules" and limits. I would be quite comfortable with that even though Steve is a goof.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.102}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 07:45:20 EDT (13 lines) I"d like to see it stay Fresh Press if at all possible. Neopoeia I could do without, it's too damned hard to spell. We also have to decide when to make whatever announcement to the posters, most of whom haven't a clue about this yet. They need to be given the chance to discuss this, to know they can copy (and should) anything they want to save. After all, I just know several of them are using Workshop as a storage bin, and if it disappeared, so will most of their writing... Steve, wherever we go, if it's not here, will there be some kind of grahics capability? You know, like we had before the Big Switch to Motet II?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.103}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 02 May 2003 09: 08:26 EDT (64 lines) Well, it just so happens that I can answer that question right now. You see, I''ve been working tirelessly to get the new site whipped into shape over the past couple days, Graphical Capability being one of the first problems we addressed. And I'm happy to report that there will be some sort of graphics capacity, even though it might not be what the hosts have gotten accustomed to here. On the other hand, it'll prolly be easier to deal with than using FTP to load files, too. Stay tuned for more details. And on a related (but not necessarily relevant) note, working with the fundamental motet filesystem has answered a lot of questions I've had about the workings of this shit. In addition to providing be the visceral thrill of using the administration software. If Steve has any sense he'll yank my access as soon as things are running well enough for real people to log in and use the place, but as of right now? I Am As A God there. And enjoying it tremendously. And Fi, I think the letter you drafted was pretty good too. But to be honest, anything that looked like it might stand of chance of making Alex come out of hiding would've looked pretty good. Let's face it kiddies, the main focus right now should be smoking that fucker out of his hole. No matter what it takes. If someone wanted to send him a letter promising him free beer and blowjobs if he'd stop in and say hi, I'd be behind it %100. Matter of fact, I'd prolly even be willing to provide the beer, as long as someone else took care of the blowjobs. Which may or may not even be applicable, seeing as Alex already confessed to being a Sex Pervert who may or may not even be into shit like that. Point is, there's no reason to piss around the finer points of any letter that gets sent to Alex. Because until we have some idea what the fuck is going on with him, we have no idea what Finer Points may even apply. For instance, it could be the sumbitch won the lottery, or hooked up with some filthy-rich mamasita and he's too busy snorting coke and wiping his ass with hunnert-dollar bills to fuck around here or answer E-mail. In which case worrying about who's gonna pay what to buy the site would end up being pretty stupid. Come to think of it, so would offering free beer and blowjobs. Seeing as the sysop guy offered to forward a letter, I think we have two choices here. Either we send Fi's letter, or we spend a month wasting time pissing this whole bullshit situation around. Not that Fi's letter is best possible letter that can be writ, but at least it was serious and had most of the words spelled right. With the former option, we can sit back and revel in the fact that we've done all that can reasonably be done. Then alls we gotta do is wait and see what happens next. With the latter option, I gotta keep coming here and watching people trying to pick gnat shit out of a pepper pot that might not even exist. Which is fairly irritating work. If we're gonna take the sysop up on his offer, let's just do it and see what happens. The way I see it, even if the place goes up in smoke a week later we still get something out of the deal. Even if it's only the marginal satisfaction of riping Fi a new one for fucking everything up for everyone.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.104}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 02 May 2003 09:16:38 EDT (7 lines) I am glad you are having fun with the motet site, John. Fi's letter is fine. What bugs me is that Alex already knows all of this. He is keenly aware of the situtation, even if he has not peeked in here for months. Yet he chooses not to contact us. Until I hear what he has to say (if anything at all) I am going to suspend judgement on what we should do next.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.105}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 02 May 2003 09: 22:37 EDT (9 lines) Didn't say I was having fun, Therese. With the powers of a Motet God come some awesome responsibilities, and it takes a substantial degree of Internal Strength to resist the lure of the Dark Side and use the powers for Good instead of Evil. The load is heavy but my belt is tight, and my balls are swinging from left to right. So far, so good.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.106}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Fri, 02 May 2003 09:44:26 EDT (3 lines) "most of the words"? pffft! {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.106}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Fri, 02 May 2003 09:44:26 EDT (3 lines) "most of the words"? pffft!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.107}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 02 May 2003 09: 47:36 EDT (3 lines) So much for gracious acceptance of a compliment. Ingrate.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.108}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 10:02:23 EDT (8 lines) well, I sorta liked my letter, too, but what the hell (sulk) There is something, John, about the idea of you being a motet God that really really scares me... what kind of graphics setup would there be? I had no problem with the FTP thing, btw.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.109}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 02 May 2003 10: 31:08 EDT (9 lines) There's an attachmemt feature in Motet that is turned on here, but not working. It is working on the other site. There is a box that appears under the post box. You browes your hard drive for the file you want to upload and when you hit post, it's there as an attachment. From there, you can click on it and display the file, or you can reference the URL in HTML just like in a graphics folder. You never leave Motet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.110}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 11:22:58 EDT (1 line) that does sound pretty good--no more ftp stuff. cool

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.111}: Name Withheld {withheld} Fri, 02 May 2003 12: 25:21 EDT (18 lines) FWIW, thefreshpress.com expires in July. neopoeia.com, though, has a bit longer: Domain Name: NEOPOEIA.COM Created on..............: Sun, Feb 20, 2000 Expires on..............: Sun, Feb 20, 2005 Record last updated on..: Tue, Feb 25, 2003 Both records were updated on the same day, Feb 25, 2003. www.thefreshpress.com is a pointer to www.neopoeia.com: $ host www.thefreshpress.com www.thefreshpress.com CNAME www.neopoeia.com www.neopoeia.com A 206.30.168.163

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.112}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 12:31:25 EDT (2 lines) yeah, I noticed that too it's like a teeny message, isn't it

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.113}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Fri, 02 May 2003 12:41:56 EDT (12 lines) Mitts, I liked your letter too. IMO, Fi's builds on it by adding options. My own preference is not to move but to get this place working again... <it's like a teeny message, isn't it> Well, yeah: paying the bills and making sure the site name are preserved indicate strongly that whatever else Alex maybe be doing, he hasn't walked away entirely from FP.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.114}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 12:48:07 EDT (9 lines) that was my impression too I"d like to stay here, get the broken parts fixed, all of that. like i said earlier, somewhere, we know where everything is. my biggest fear is that some of the newer people and some of those who are marginal about Fresh Press anyway are apt to just get lost in the move But it may not be possible to stay here. Again, it's all up to Alex, isn't it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.115}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Fri, 02 May 2003 14:53:48 EDT (8 lines) Yep. I'd like to email Flipper & let him know what's going on here. It may not do any good if his ISP still isn't talking to him, but I still think someone should try. Has anyone heard from him recently?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.116}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 15:53:53 EDT (12 lines) he has no online access at the moment. I called him last week, he said it will be awhile before he's got everything squared away financially and can get back online this is the only thing holding him back. He managed to get to a library and send me one message that said, "call me", it was like a note in a bottle washed up on the shore. I can call him again, if you like. I may not be able to get him, but I could give it a shot, at least let him know what we're about.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.117}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Fri, 02 May 2003 16: 15:13 EDT (2 lines) Poor finned one... he should be sleeping at that library, tell him. I miss his, uh, tail.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.118}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 16:19:40 EDT (1 line) I miss all of him, flippers, flukes, squeal, and finny sense of humor

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.119}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Fri, 02 May 2003 16:34:16 EDT (1 line) Run the letter, I just had to voice my concerns.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.120}: Name Withheld {withheld} Fri, 02 May 2003 18: 20:23 EDT (12 lines) I'm all for making this place work, too, if we can swing it. Thanks for speaking up, HT: Everyone's having done so is part of what what makes me think we can a continue to make a go of things, the fact that we have a group of people willing to pitch in, small and steady enough not to be completely unmanageable, but with a broad enough and diverse enough collection of experience and expertise and opinion and temperament to make sure that we have most bases covered. We see a lot of "strength through unity" kinds of messages these days, but I'm like "fuck that, strength through diversity is the real deal".

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.121}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Fri, 02 May 2003 19:06:26 EDT (13 lines) {120} I agree. {116} Mitts: maybe you *could* call Flipper just to let him know what's up. I'd like to see Flipper's finprint before sending the letter, but if there's a more-or-less consensus to send it "now" I'm okay with that too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.122}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 02 May 2003 19:47:44 EDT (7 lines) I think we can pretty much be assured that flipper would be with this wholeheartedly. I dont think he's around on Friday nights, though...I"ll call him Monday when I know he's available, if I dont hear from him before that. I agree, Name, this is a good bunch, and I haven't the slightest doubt that this could work.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.123}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sat, 03 May 2003 19: 46:38 EDT (13 lines) So far as I know, rietta hosts at least three copies of Motet. It looks like Steve is using the middle tier of Linux shared hosting, and I'm inferring that he's doing this because that's what the FP is using, and from some mention somewhere of Alex's that I recall ( probably incorrectly) that the FP takes up something in the ballpark of a Zip-disk's worth of space. The smallest 50MB option seems too small for that, but the 200MB momma bear option seems to be about just right. And that's $25/month, just FYI. http://www.atlantawebhost.com/shared_linux.php

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.124}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 03 May 2003 21:08:36 EDT (2 lines) that's not really an onerous amount of money, a carton cigarettes costs almost twice that now, and a tank of gasoline as well

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.125}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 03 May 2003 21:24:09 EDT (1 line) How much would it cost to "buy" Fresh Press?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.126}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sat, 03 May 2003 21: 30:44 EDT (31 lines) Well, just thought I'd get the numbers out there. It's like when a bunch of co-workers go out together--it's not so much the absolute dollar amounts involved, it's the divvying up of the check each time that can be, by turns, embarrasing, awkward, or even infuriating. So, if it comes to sharing the cost, do we split it umpteen ways every time, do we take turns paying the bill, does yesdeer set up a PayPal account and we just contribute to that, or do we each who is willing to pitch in put small unmarked bills in an envelope and send them to a P.O. Box in skonk's name, and just trust that he'll take care of it all for us? Food for thought, is all. ------- Therese slipped. I don't know. But you can calculate how many months the FP has been open, and multiply by that $25 per, throw in $500-1000 for the Motet license, add another few bucks for domain name registration, and you're getting close to a reasonable lower-bounds for what Alex has in the place, in terms of cold, hard out-of-pocket cash expenses. His time and creativity and angst and all that other stuff isn't even touched by that, but then again, a few folks still here have already made deposits of a similar nature to that, so it kinda comes out in the wash.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.127}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 03 May 2003 21:32:32 EDT (2 lines) I thought the Motet license cost $2000 (but my memory may be faulty on this).

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.128}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sat, 03 May 2003 21: 40:26 EDT (6 lines) OK, for that kind of money, maybe the amount does matter. A buck or two a month, no big deal maybe. But split two grand 20 ways, throw in the legal costs of incorporating even as a 503(c) or whatever, and that's getting deep into I Want Something To Show For My Money territory.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.129}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 03 May 2003 21:48:57 EDT (3 lines) Yeah, it may be more than a few bucks. I would be willing up to a point but if it's going to run into the hundreds, I may need to confer witht the other keeper of my exchequer...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.130}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 03 May 2003 22:15:25 EDT (6 lines) 2 grand split 20 ways is about $100 apiece--still not out of bounds. As to a monthly rent, I dunno--no matter how you do it, it gets into serious bookkeeping. Keeping it nonprofit would mean less tax worries, trying to turn a profit would involve taxes one way or the other.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.131}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 03 May 2003 22: 16:44 EDT (13 lines) Buying FP is not an expensive prop. Alex offered it to me once, but we never got to a price. I had just sent in my money for the Motet license when Alex decided to sell and split. He was going to set it up and stuff for me, then fogged out on the deal. So I wasn't into buying FP at the time after having already spent the bucks for what has turned into the lifeboat. This stuff isn't real expensive, and if he does want to sell, I've no problem dropping the funds to do it. I like the idea of a LLC or something for FP and if we can't make it work here, it can be done with the other system. Consider it donated to the cause already.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.132}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 03 May 2003 22:23:24 EDT (2 lines) doesn't it have that already, Steve? Or do you need to do it all over again if you buy it?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.133}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 03 May 2003 22: 27:55 EDT (2 lines) I'm not sure what you are talking about. If FP can be bought, then that would include the name, software, registration, etc.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.134}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 03 May 2003 22: 28:38 EDT (2 lines) If it can't be bought, that stuff is pretty much done for the lifeboat, except it will require a name and domain name change.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.135}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 03 May 2003 23:40:40 EDT (3 lines) I meant this site has the LLC thingy, as I recall.I was just asking if that went along with it if it was sold or had to be reapplied for a new owner

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.136}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 00: 16:04 EDT (1 line) It is an LLC? I didn't know that. Are you sure?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.137}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 00:53:47 EDT (6 lines) Way back at the beginning it seems to me there ws some discussion about it, and I seem to remember Alex saying there was one. I"m not sure now, but I do remembet something about it. Would Frank Rietta know? There might be a way to check online, if you knew where to look

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.138}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Sun, 04 May 2003 02:55:01 EDT (5 lines) The registrations are held by Neopoeia, Inc. I'm not up on US company law, but in the UK, there would be a difference between an LLC and an Inc (or at least our versions of them as I understand them).

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.139}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 07:46:15 EDT (6 lines) yes that's what I recall, and why I remember it. It may be that when Alex and Dana dissolved themselves and the partnership he chnaged the LLC to INc. I KNOW I saw it somewhere discussed, and written that way. Maybe two years ago, probably longer, and god knows where it might have been discussed. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.139}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 07:46:15 EDT (6 lines) yes that's what I recall, and why I remember it. It may be that when Alex and Dana dissolved themselves and the partnership he chnaged the LLC to INc. I KNOW I saw it somewhere discussed, and written that way. Maybe two years ago, probably longer, and god knows where it might have been discussed.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.140}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 09: 27:39 EDT (72 lines) As far as I know, Fi got it just about right. An LLC (Limited Liability Corporation) is a lame-assed version of incorporation. In most cases, when you're part of a sole proprietorship or a partnership, you and your partners are liable for any bad shit that happens with the bidness. Basically it means that if the bidness goes into the shitter, you and your partners are responsible for any debts and damages you might have racked up while you were in bidness. Incorporation protects you from this sorta thang by making the bidness a seperate entity that's responsible for all it's own shit. So if everything goes to hell and the bidness goes south, you're not personally responsible for anything except maybe the bags of money you stole from the company before it tanked. And that's only if someone can prove you tookem. An LLC is sort of halfway between the two. It doesn't give the bidness all the protection and whatnot that you get with full-scale inocorporation, but you don't have to go through all the folderall of having a regular corporate structure with a president and officers and all that goofy shit. But it DOES put limits on the degree of financial responsibility to the customers by the company. So if your taco stand is a sole proprietorship and someone kicks the bucket because you were using diseased cat meat in the food, you're left holding the bag when their family sues. They can clean you out and leave you crying in the street wearing a barrel. But if you were incorporated, the corporation would be left holding the bag. So you keep all YOUR money and shit, and all the family can do is sue the company. They can't touch your personal holdings. And if it were an LLC, the family could go after all the company shit and SOME of your personal stuff, depending on your involvement with the deal. Of course this is a huge oversimplification of the whole thing, but it's enough for the purposes of this discussion. This place being an LLC does little more than give the owner a small legal degree of protection if someone sues for whatever reason. And maybe some tax angles of some sort. But since this place hasn't turned a dime's worth of profit since it was established, making it an LLC is pretty goofy. I mean, what's the point of limiting your liability if you're not gonna make money on the deal? Duh! But I'll be totally honest with y'all, beyond talking about this whole thing in the most abstract sense, I'm REALLY uncomfortable with this discussion. Yeah, I realize that mostly it's just contingency planning, but still. Even if you're talking about how to divvy up the pie if it turns out Alex is dead in a ditch somewhere, we're still talking about how to divvy up someone else's pie. And if I were Alex and I looked in on this conversation, I'd be pissed like a bear. I'd be thinking "What the fuck is THIS stupid bullshit? Don't these people understand that the fucking place is MINE? Jesus, I never gave the slightest indication that I was interested in selling, but these people are acting like they're at a fucking estate sale or something. Serve `em all right if I just deleted all the files and walked away." Of course that's just me. But there's a big difference between talking about what we're gonna do if this place tanks, and making plans for what to do with what's essentially a big gob of data that belongs to someone else. Especially since we don't have the tiniest goddamned clue about the intentions of the owner. At the very least, it's likely to be a complete waste of time. As long as the monthly bill is getting paid we KNOW that someone (probably Alex) still has an interest in the keeping it going. Which means it's reasonable to assume that the domain registration will be renewed, etc. But beyond that, we have NOTHING to base any assumptions on. So I'm willing to discuss lifeboat drills, and even to have Rietta stuff a note into the monthly bill asking Alex what the fuck is going on. But until we have some indication of where Alex stands on the whole thing, anything beyond that makes no sense at all.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.141}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 09:44:42 EDT (10 lines) I agree, John, this is all just wheel spinning, but in a way it can be useful, since it gets all the discussion and what-ifs out of the way ahead of time. IF the time comes, then this has all been gotten out and said. In a way it's like deciding what to do with Great Aunt Martha's house after she dies. You're not necessarily shoving her out the door, but the old girl is 93, and won't live forever, in that nursing home.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.142}: Sunrise {rich} Sun, 04 May 2003 09:46:14 EDT (2 lines) What if Dana is paying the bills and there's some other kind of ownership document around?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.143}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 09:52:50 EDT (5 lines) oh, I dont THINK so do you really believe she could be paying the bills and not try to get a hand in the running of this place now? oh please. This would be Speakeasy West in five days flat

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.144}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 09:53:07 EDT (4 lines) damn, you just gave me the shivers, Rich stop that

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.145}: Sunrise {rich} Sun, 04 May 2003 10:17:17 EDT (2 lines) If he's lost interest, or is no longer around, why would he be paying the bills?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.146}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 10: 39:15 EDT (23 lines) Dozens of reasons. The most obvious being maybe he doesn't have a computer. Rietta says the billing is being done by snail mail, so maybe he simply doesn't have access to a machine. Or maybe he's in the hospital, and someone is paying his bills for him. Or maybe he's a Lord of the Flies enthusiast, and he just wants to sit back and watch the hosts battle for supremacy. And if it were just a regular schmuck off the street, I could think of fifty other reasons. But since it's Alex, it's more like five hunnert. Course you could take any scenario I came up with and say "Yeah, but if that was the case, wouldn't he do this?" And then we could speculate and countespecualte until doomsday. Without getting any closer to the truth than we are now. However, I AM willing to start a parimutuel Betting Pool in one of the more public topics, where we could list the possible reasons for his absence and make wagers on the outcome. At least then there'd be some point to guessing at whyy he's gone.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.147}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 10: 45:21 EDT (8 lines) ...and Judy? Yeah I realize this is like trying to figure out what to do with old Aunt Mabel's house when she dies because she's 93 and living in a nursing home and whatnot. But how do you think Aunt Mabel would feel about the conversation? She might think it was an entirely sensible thing to do. But on the other hand, she might hire some asshole to burn the place down just outa spite.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.148}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 11: 09:02 EDT (9 lines) What the fuck should anyone care what the fuck Alex thinks or would think about this conversation? He's awol for whatever reason, probably for nuts o plenty, but he isn't stoopid. This conversation is exactly what anyone would expect to fall out of this situation. He did offer the place for sale, and he may be patient enough to sit around reading romance novels until this crew of yahoos decides how and when to track his ass down and shove him off the pot, cause he ain't shitting.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.149}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 11: 23:47 EDT (15 lines) Maybe it IS what anyone would expect to come from this kind of situation. But that doesn't mean it's a productive conversation. Just because he offered it for sale once doesn't mean the offer stands, and for all we know? It's already been sold. Has anyone given any thought to that? Could be that Alex ain't been around because he already sold it to someone else and moved to fucking Guatemala. Maybe the new owner is actually One Who Walks Among Us, pretending to be Just Another Patron. Waiting to see what kind of offer we can put together, and maybe make a profit on the deal. Yeah, I know it sounds like a longshot. But it wouldn't be the first time it's happened here.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.150}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 11: 26:38 EDT (1 line) Well, we'll see soon enough after the letter gets sent.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.151}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 04 May 2003 11:29:22 EDT (14 lines) {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.101}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 02 May 2003 07:33:45 EDT (9 lines) I would like to know Alex's intentions before anything else. If he is truly done with FP, then I would think we should begin copying stuff we want to keep and let the thing go. And if Steve wants to start another place (for which we hosts might want to kick in some funds to help him get it going and/or maintain it), that would be great. But it wouldn't be Fresh Press anymore. It would be a new place, with Steve as the Big Guy, with Steve's own preferences and "rules" and limits. I would be quite comfortable with that even though Steve is a goof.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.152}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 04 May 2003 11:34:05 EDT (14 lines) John, Alex would not be pissed off if he saw this discussion. We are casting around for alternatives in case Alex really does want to ditch FP for good and he would understand that completely. The weird part is, he already knows exactly what situation we are in, he knows what the alternatives are, he knows we want him back, and he knows we are worried about him. He knows this with or without a letter. If he is not sick or dead, then he is going through some life changes, dealing with a divorce that may or may not involve splitting up property, and who knows what else. He is also very very determined not to be outed by Barry or anyone else. So he has chosen to just keep quiet. He may also have found that life is sweeter without us (insult!!) and he hasn't quite made up his mind to tell us yet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.153}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 11:46:34 EDT (18 lines) he warned us once a long time ago that he might just disappear, and if he did not to try to find him. to me, that's the bottom line until something else happens. I think Alex is capable of walking away from this and letting us work out the whole thing on our own, not out of malice or boredom but just simply because it was time for him to go. for whatever reason. The fact that he IS still keeping the lights on and the heat coming tells me that he still has an interest in this place, if only from a distance. If he had truly walked off this place would have died within a month. It may be that this is exactlly what he wants, for us to keep it going, one way or the other. he always was a sort of hands-off admin anyway, capable of far more self-control in these issues than most of us can be; and if I were in his shoes, I dunno. Maybe I'd just be waiting for someone to come and gently lift it out of my hands, at last.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.154}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 11: 48:08 EDT (2 lines) I still think a betting pool is the best way to make this a productive conversation.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.155}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 11:48:38 EDT (1 line) I'll bet there is no pool

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.156}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 12:00:21 EDT (16 lines) >He may also have found that life is sweeter without us< Although that's theoretically possible, I'd say it's just as likely that FP has been bought by FX who is posting here as that guy "Scooter." <hehe> Funny, I thought about trying to contact him by snail mail too... but then thought better of it, for the very reasons Mitts mentions. But from *all* of us (who are more or less keeping the joint running in his absence): if he's going to reply to anything, that's it. BTW: I don't think he'd mind us talking about different ways to keep FP going...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.157}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 12: 10:32 EDT (11 lines) Point is, we can think all we like but we don't KNOW jack shit. I mean, maybe he suffered a penetrating brain injury that's turned him into a creature of Pure Evil. And now he's lurking around with a fake login, trying to determine who's in favor of buying the place out or taking over or whatnot. So he can track down those who are a little too enthusiastic about Taking Over and slash their throats while they sleep. Go ahead and laugh if you want, but shit like this used to happen in my neighborhood all the time.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.158}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 12:12:35 EDT (1 line) that explains so MUCH, muffin...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.159}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 12: 16:26 EDT (7 lines) Well to those with some Insight, it actually does. It illustrates how little we know about what's going on with the whole situation. Because the idea that Alex has suffered a penetrating brain injury that's turned him into a creature of Pure Evil is every bit as plausible as anything else I've heard, considering the information we have to go on.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.160}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 12: 52:46 EDT (5 lines) >So he can track down those who are a little too enthusiastic about Taking Over and slash their throats while they sleep.< Too late. I had my throat slashed already and I don't sleep so good now. He's missed his chance, the sorry bastard.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.161}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 13: 40:05 EDT (3 lines) http://company.specformliners.com Let me know if there are any problems. Have fun.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.162}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sun, 04 May 2003 15: 11:34 EDT (15 lines) Thanks you, that was timely. Because the discussion of business structure, etc. doesn't have to be exclusively in the estate-sale context, whatever skonks' whinecakes about it. The discussion can be about how to structure any financial considerations for a new site, whether it is a granola-buying coop to legally own Steve's donation of the Motet license and the compilation copyright to the specformliners Motet site, or an LLC to accept our pennies and apply them to the monthly diskspace and bandwidth bill, or whatever. It could *also* be about having some structure through which to buy the FreshPress, but it doesn't *have* to be. How much it is one thing or another depends on whether we ever hear from Alex about this again.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.163}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sun, 04 May 2003 15: 11:59 EDT (1 line) Discussion of LLC etc is at {LuCreativity.11.1-}

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.164}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 16:19:34 EDT (3 lines) >http://company.specformliners.com< Nice graphics...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.165}: {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 16:57:21 EDT (0 lines) {erased by yesdeer Sun, 04 May 2003 16:57:25 EDT}

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.166}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 16: 57:59 EDT (2 lines) Five minutes, scooter. Just wait until all creative hell breaks loose.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.167}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 17:35:21 EDT (4 lines) It looks like you've got auto-reg on (I got sent a password), but I don't see any conferences beyond the site page. Is that right? {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.167}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 17:35:21 EDT (4 lines) It looks like you've got auto-reg on (I got sent a password), but I don't see any conferences beyond the site page. Is that right?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.168}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 17: 53:45 EDT (3 lines) You should see two forums, Practice and Homesite. Ain't that what you get?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.169}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:06:08 EDT (7 lines) Nope. After sign-in I get a page called: http://company.specformliners.com/motet/bin/motet.cgi ...and it's blank.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.170}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:17:19 EDT (8 lines) Registered Thanks for registering. You should receive your conferencing password via email shortly (you will be able to change it once you have logged in). The URL for conferencing is I got this, plus a URL-when I click on that I get a page to login on

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.171}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 18: 18:05 EDT (1 line) Hang on.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.172}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:18:27 EDT (3 lines) and I just got my password. neener, scoots

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.173}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:23:07 EDT (5 lines) Well, neener back. Is yours "******"? <heh>

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.174}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:29:43 EDT (8 lines) gasp we have the same password thud

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.175}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 18: 34:10 EDT (7 lines) I don't know Scooter, I just made a new account and logged in through the front door, and got a page with Homesite and Practice forums listed. Are you sure you know how to work that machine? Judy, what did you get?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.176}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:36:35 EDT (2 lines) Ooooo...I just registered, got a password and posted! Kinda echoey in there. Who is joe???

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.177}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 18: 38:31 EDT (5 lines) Another CyberEntity. And I just saw your post. Which means that when I asked Scooter if he knew how to work his machine, I might not have been kidding after all.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.178}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:43:45 EDT (4 lines) Yeah, I got in. But even a blind golfer hits a ball now and again. Is it really called Kafe Konfusion? I love it!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.179}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:55:17 EDT (6 lines) Well, I don't think it likes my password... I consistently have to do the password thing three times & then it dumps me onto a blank page... Which makes me think I'm probably not getting *really* signed in...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.180}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 04 May 2003 18:59:03 EDT (5 lines) Yup. I miscopied the PW from the email... Just got in & posted.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.181}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Sun, 04 May 2003 18: 59:54 EDT (5 lines) I'm there. Painless registration & log-in. Took all of 3 minutes, maybe. Love the flying pig. :)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.182}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 19: 23:45 EDT (1 line) Practice makes perfect, Scooter.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.183}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 19: 28:04 EDT (6 lines) Oh, and "Kafe Konfusion" was just something to put on the response E-mail so it wouldn't get shitcanned by spamcatcher software. I was looking at a blank space and figured it was marginally better than calling it "Duhhh...." It'll prolly change once the place has a real name.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.184}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 19:45:26 EDT (1 line) yes please

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.185}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Sun, 04 May 2003 19:47:33 EDT (2 lines) Boy, that was strange reading ... Mssr. Pelligrino, you are one interesting wordsmith ...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.186}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 04 May 2003 20: 05:46 EDT (1 line) I'll take that as the compliment it was doubtless intended to be.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.187}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sun, 04 May 2003 23: 03:26 EDT (4 lines) Has anyone passed the link to the new site to anyone not in this host forum? I gave {kathyv} an account a week or so ago. No one else.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.188}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 04 May 2003 23:24:06 EDT (1 line) no

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.189}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 05 May 2003 00: 25:31 EDT (1 line) I did.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.190}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 00: 44:14 EDT (11 lines) Well, that's one way to take the wind out of a witchhunt's sails :-) I mean, we wouldn't want to agree on any kind of limitations to this site *beforehand*, because that would be too much like the dreaded (dare I even type it) Social Contract. And it would also go against the time-honored tradition of Motet administration that says that nothing is to be decided beforehand, but only put into effect on an ad hoc basis, since that way the admins can have as much flexibility as they want, regardless of the uncertainty and confusion that may generate among the lower orders.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.191}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 00: 57:42 EDT (3 lines) I mean, it's not like we need to be able to work together on this or anything. We can all pull in different directions, and I'm sure it'll turn out just fine.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.192}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 03:01 EDT (1 line) Are we?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.193}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 05:54 EDT (2 lines) Let's see if we can work through what matters. A simple question got the answer. No bull, no backgammon.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.194}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 08:16 EDT (9 lines) >> A simple question got the answer. No bull, no backgammon. Exactly. And not that you asked, but in fact I did check the list of Lifeboat registered users and saw several names who weren't hosts, as well as a couple of unknown socks. It didn't look like a closed shop to me.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.195}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 13:18 EDT (4 lines) It was a closed shop, but not by design. Test socks, an Utne host, and an ID from my business. Moulton was a surprise.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.196}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 14:07 EDT (13 lines) Well not for nothing, but I (and I'm most of the other people her, I think) was under the impression that the shit people say in THIS topic is supposed to STAY in this topic. Which would include Links to the Lifeboat. Especially with regards to people who were not only kicked out of this conference, but kicked off this whole fucking board. I mean, what's the use of calling this place the Host topic if this shit is obviously getting blabbed to people who aren't even allowed on the board anymore? Jesus CHRIST that is some sad shit!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.197}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 24:06 EDT (10 lines) No bull, no backgammon because it's Nan, Steve. She's your one free pass. Like I've said elsewhere, John, if you don't want open registration, then close the fucker down, already. Leak, leak, who is the leak, was old and tired before we even got started on this round of it. If you guys are going to play the Hardy Boys about all this, you should learn the difference between "obscure" and "secret," for starters.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.198}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 32:19 EDT (5 lines) Here's some more useful feedback: "By the way, you can now tell Steve that the lostpwd.cgi page is nonfunctional, in case he wants it to work. I tried that asap. It returns an internal server error." -- Moulton

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.199}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 34:13 EDT (3 lines) Fucking lemonade outa lemons! How can you not love that??

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.200}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Mon, 05 May 2003 01:37:40 EDT (18 lines) {197}: There's another option. It's called consensus. That's not how things have run at FP, but it's more or less how things run in .Hostly. If that's not how things run at the new site, I'm sort of okay with that. But I'd kind of like to see it spelled out. So let me ask the obvious question. Yesdeer: since you're paying the freight, do you want to make any rules at this point about who gets to know about the new site?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.201}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 48:00 EDT (1 line) I'd say, speak now, or forever shut the fuck up.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.202}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 50:31 EDT (20 lines) No I do not, scooter. I've donated the software to the cause and will continue to pay the ISP. Now it's up to the cause to make it what we want it to be, whatever that is. So we better figure out how to build something from consensus. It didn't work for MetaMatters, or CAP, and I'm wondering how it's gonna work now. Autoreg is on. It can be turned off. Leaks don't have to be a problem. And we can all agree that we are all wise enough to point special additions to the site, I guess. There are people outside of this host conference 'worthy' of additions, in my opinion. Some may not agree with my choices of whom. Likewise, others may here may feel the same way about their choices of additions. So, we either bring people on or we keep it to ourselves for a while. What's it gonna be folks? {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.202}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 01: 50:31 EDT (20 lines) No I do not, scooter. I've donated the software to the cause and will continue to pay the ISP. Now it's up to the cause to make it what we want it to be, whatever that is. So we better figure out how to build something from consensus. It didn't work for MetaMatters, or CAP, and I'm wondering how it's gonna work now. Autoreg is on. It can be turned off. Leaks don't have to be a problem. And we can all agree that we are all wise enough to point special additions to the site, I guess. There are people outside of this host conference 'worthy' of additions, in my opinion. Some may not agree with my choices of whom. Likewise, others may here may feel the same way about their choices of additions. So, we either bring people on or we keep it to ourselves for a while. What's it gonna be folks?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.203}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 02: 12:46 EDT (30 lines) First off, how much was the Motet license, for the record? I'm no accountant, but if some legal construct ends up holding it, there's got to be some number put beside it in the books, I guess. Second, this question of ownership is crucial to me, because this floating from place to place to place gets fucking old, after a while. And that's me, the one who enjoys digging into the boring server crap and doesn't care so much about icons vs text, forums vs conferences, backgrounds and colors and so on and on and on. To the folks who see that first and foremost, it's a wonder they all haven't passed out from vertigo and metaphor shear. I'm sure we've already lost several along the way from the Gate for just that sort of reason. Eeek, forums, indeed. So, whatever it is should really be insulated from the single-point-of-failure sole-proprietorship "I'm freaked out so I'm leaving you all" thing we're riding out now. The big money-making corporate deal, or corporate sugar-daddy things also seems to have its problems. The self-sustaining non-profit or not-much-profit everybody pays their share, but for maybe a few comp and trial accounts, makes the most sense to me. On the other hand, maybe this sort of drama is *just* the sort of thing to keep things fresh and flowering. Ah, what do I know? I know this much--when some fruitcake on a mission (or some corporate legal flak) comes looking for someone to sue, or at least to send cease-and-desist letters, I don't want to be on the front line. I just don't care about it that much.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.204}: Name Withheld {withheld} Mon, 05 May 2003 02: 18:12 EDT (5 lines) Actually, to get back to things before we were all distracted by the other site, has anyone sent Fi's letter to Rietta yet? That's the *main* thing I want to work forward. Moving to another Motet site is a distant second or third.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.205}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 04: 25:17 EDT (3 lines) $1000. I'm sending the letter Monday, afternoon probably.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.206}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 08:21:45 EDT (9 lines) for what it's worth, and too damn late to do anything about it, it woulda been nice to have it confined first to the hosts until we got the wallpaper up and the currtains ironed, and then discussed membership, with an eye to Fresh Press people first, and open reg after that. Nan, it might have been a courtesy to ask Steve first, since up until now this has been a host venture, with no mention outside the conference. ah well.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.207}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 08: 41:50 EDT (28 lines) Actually, that's pretty much what I was thinking. I mean seriously Nan, did you even think about this whole thing for a second before running to Barry with the URL of the new place? Or did you think about it and honestly expect that nobody would have any sort of problem with it? Or did you think about it, realize it would create some sort of shitstorm, then go right the fuck ahead and do it anyway? Seriously, this is one REALLY lame way to kick things off. Bad enough that you didn't waste any time getting the new URL to someone you knew would be problematic at the very best, but THAT lame fucker couldn't even wait a few hours to register. Jesus Christ, he had a login before YOU did. Or any of the other hosts, except for Scooter. That says a lot right there. It's just pretty fucking sad, is all. You can rationalize this and make excuses as much as you want, but what you've come up with so far is pretty lame. At the VERY least you should have realized that the place wasn't open to the public yet, and said something before telling Barry about it. Even though nobody came right out and said that it was supposed to be kept under wraps, I think everyone else here understood it. At least to the point where they didn't start telling people about it the minute the home page was up. How many times are you gonna let Barry do this shit to you?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.208}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 05 May 2003 08:53:34 EDT (7 lines) I only suggested that we keep it Hosts Only until we figure out what Alex is going to do (or not do or whatever!). I thought it best to keep it quiet so that it doesn't become a signal that Fresh Press will soon be dead, something we certainly don't know to be true. I don't think Alex would appreciate us essentially telling the posters that Fresh Press is nearly done and come on over to the new place. Not yet, anyhow.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.209}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 09:02:53 EDT (8 lines) My feeling was, get it rolling, if we need it it's there, and let it out to the FP people first, let them get comfy with it before we start letting in new people. I agree, Therese. Folks tend to panic, sometimes, and especially when you've already had one board taken out from under you, like the Gaters, to find that this might fold too, could start a mass exodus elsewhere,at a time when we need them here...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.210}: Sunrise {rich} Mon, 05 May 2003 09:07:16 EDT (3 lines) I don't understand why Barry was so eager to join. The place contains the same FP players--denizens he's constantly knocked in other URLs.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.211}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 09: 26:19 EDT (12 lines) Same reason a dog licks his balls, I reckon. Because he could. And the whole Panic Thing was one of the reasons I figured we were supposed to keep this under our hats. For the time being, at least. I mean, this is purely a last-ditch contingency What If sorta thing, isn't it? For all we know, Alex is gonna surface tomorrow with some sort of fucked-up explanation and the whole thing will be completely unnecessary. But even if it doesn't, I don't think we need Barry dancing around saying "Hah! Look! FP is going down in flames, and the rats are abandoning ship already!"

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.212}: {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 09:29:18 EDT (0 lines) {erased by judy98 Mon, 05 May 2003 09:29:31 EDT}

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.213}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Mon, 05 May 2003 12:44:16 EDT (19 lines) Here's a simple solution. People who are in .Hostly plus anyone agreed to here. By that criterion, I'm okay with Kathy V. I'm not (pax, Nan) at all okay with Barry. He could politely be told that his registration was premature & get his log-in burned ("for the moment" as it were). I *really* don't want discussion about the new site to turn into another Barry thrash. IMO there's lots of other worthwhile things to talk about, both about FP and about the new site. Aside from somehow getting it off the table, I don't think the Barry thing is one of them .

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.214}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 12:49:23 EDT (8 lines) good post, Scooter. And I agree. One last thing, and then I"m done talking about it, probably. I was reluctant, for some reason, to go through that door. No idea why. But now that I have, and seen Who Is There, any loose reluctance I may have about posting there has solidified. It's no longer is a place I wish to go to.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.215}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 05 May 2003 19:08:21 EDT (3 lines) I don't mind going over there and keeping track of developments. But Rietta is supposed to send our note to Alex today, yes? So I am waiting to see what comes of it...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.216}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Mon, 05 May 2003 19:27:55 EDT (15 lines) Could someone else please say something about the "Barry at the new site thing"? I'm not interested in turning this into "blaming Nan"... Admittedly there were no rules. I can see Name's point about keeping auto-reg on... but IMO that's not the point right now: the issue is who even gets to know that new site exists. Why should Barry have priority over anybody else who wasn't invited in by Yesdeer, or who isn't posting in .Hostly? I'm less than charmed at the idea of having to post around Barry at a site that's barely opened... and with the "Houdini sucker punch" thing still so close in time...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.217}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 19: 40:28 EDT (25 lines) Actually I think Steve will be sending the note to Reitta today Therese, after which Rietta will be stuffing it into the monthly bill envelope and sending it to Alex. At the end of the month, maybe. So you maybe don't wanna hold your breath. And Scooter, if it means that much to you, I'll fucking SERMONIZE on the whole Barry At The New Site thing. To start with, it was the creepiest fucking development I've seen since the auto-reg was turned off in this place. I mean, you were the first person to register after Steve posted the URL here, and Barry was the second. Believe me, a few eyebrows shot up over THAT. But the thing to remember here is that Barry did NOT have priority over anyoone else. Nan blabbed the URL for whatever reason, and Barry didn't waste any time registering. Even though he shoulda known that with so few users, his name would stick out like a fucking cockaroach on a wedding cake. Okay, so maybe he was just testing the water to see if he'd be welcome or whatever, but he DID crash a gate to a place that that nobody was even supposed to know existed. Rude, at the very least.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.218}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 05 May 2003 19: 42:19 EDT (6 lines) What's there to say? I am amazed barry and nan believed it would be okay for him to register. I am not opposed to him being there, eventually, but it shows such a lack of insight into anything human nature. Sort of how I feel about Scott Petterson showing up at Laci's memorial service.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.219}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 19:54:57 EDT (5 lines) my concern is that the information will be carefully leaked at speakeasy, or HNC, in such a fashion that people who post both there and here will suddenly do that 'gopher heads outta the gopher holes' thing and think, waaaaaaaaaait a minnit, what's going on at Fresh Press that WE dont know about...? Even those who don't post, do lurk.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.220}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 05 May 2003 20: 04:01 EDT (12 lines) >> I'm not interested in turning this into "blaming Nan"... << It already has. I have not tried to dodge responsibility for this. I've answered the how's and what's of how it happened. I've apologized for misreading the non-language of what was secret, private, etc., and explained how it happened that I misread them, seeing names on the userlist that weren't just hosts. Steve, or whoever's got the carkeys, you are welcome to boot me from the lifeboat. I won't be going with you if FP tanks.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.221}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 05 May 2003 20:08:56 EDT (19 lines) Yes, it was insensitive of Barry to register over there given that it was being set up as an emergency meeting point for FPers in case FP goes dark (due at least partially to Barry's treatment of Alex and Alex's feeling compelled to hide his identity). What if Alex was unwilling to show his face at FP because he was unclear about which userids were Barry socks, and he wanted to pop into the new site? He won't be doing that now, I guess. Whatever Lifeboat ends up being (emergency meeting point, new place to hang out, bootee refuge, etc.), the admin and members will have to come to some decision about Barry. Not Barry the person, but Barry's philosophy of outting those he feels are abusing him. We all know from past experience that he believes that it is his right to do this. So if he is going to be accepted as a member of any board, the powers that be on that board (and the little lights as well) need to decide if they can live with Barry and his position. I suspect that most of the hosts here would say that Barry should be prevented from participating because we already know what to expect. Who needs the grief?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.222}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 20: 19:18 EDT (3 lines) Do you have any idea how many run-on sentences were in that post? Seriously. There were a bunch.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.223}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 05 May 2003 20:27:43 EDT (4 lines) Wow, yeah! A bunch. It was easy really, and if you want me to show you how to do it, I will because you are a good buddy and it's the kind of thing that comes in handy when you are longwinded but have some important, yet jumbled, things on your mind. Just ask.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.224}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 20:47:17 EDT (1 line) Can it, muffin. that was a good post, Therese.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.225}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 05 May 2003 21: 04:05 EDT (1 line) Oh yeah. Especially for one big sentence.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.226}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 05 May 2003 21:09:10 EDT (1 line) you're just jealous

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.227}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Tue, 06 May 2003 07:58:27 EDT (2 lines) HAR! Good one. I wasn't fond of the run-ons myself but I wasn't going to admit it to Pelligrino.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.228}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 06 May 2003 19: 55:33 EDT (1 line) humma

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.229}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Tue, 06 May 2003 20: 16:30 EDT (3 lines) Hey, I've been really busy working and clicked catch up to now. Can someone tell me what's going on and if I'm supposed to go register somewhere? Thanks, muchly.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.230}: Name Withheld {withheld} Tue, 06 May 2003 20: 36:29 EDT (8 lines) In a nutshell: {161}, but don't tell anyone about it outside this conference, please. Even if kathyv and some of yesdeer's business associates also to have access but aren't members here. We're going to see if Alex will turn this place over, too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.231}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Tue, 06 May 2003 21:53:31 EDT (3 lines) my heart and soul are in this place, if you can put it that way given a choice, I'd like to stay here it would make things so much simpler

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.232}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Tue, 06 May 2003 23: 25:16 EDT (2 lines) Thanks, so much. And I feel the same way, Judy. I really miss Alex and hope he's okay and will come back. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.232}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Tue, 06 May 2003 23: 25:16 EDT (2 lines) Thanks, so much. And I feel the same way, Judy. I really miss Alex and hope he's okay and will come back.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.233}: Name Withheld {withheld} Wed, 07 May 2003 08: 46:16 EDT (4 lines) jood, I think I understand a lot of that, but just a reminder, that "stay" isn't really an option. It is going to change, somehow. What remains are questions of how, and how much, and what can we do to make the change go our way?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.234}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 09:55:46 EDT (24 lines) I get what you're saying, Name. I think what I was on about was the physical Here part. we know where everything is, it's comfy, it's familiar. Even the stuff we dont like is familiar. And all our toys and whistles are where we can get at them. The change will happen, sure, and it has to. Without change a place like this just dies--but my biggest fear is that if we make yet another total move the people who are borderline on this place anyway will disappear, and the ones who just got comfy from the gate will go over to Utne for good and we'll lose more than we gain. If we're all together in this place, I think we can allow change to happen naturally. If we have to start over, then it becomes an experiment all over again. if that makes sense. One other thing. what do we do if a poster suddenly says,"O my GOD Fresh Press is closing I heard about it at Speakeasy oh my GOD what are we going to DO"? Do we have a plan for damage control? Or do we need one? you KNOW someone is gonna spill something...I think anondr already has his nose pointed right into the wind on this, for starters...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.235}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 09: 56:11 EDT (20 lines) Which brings us back to the question of weather or not this place will exist a year from now, and who's gonna end up holding the keys to the place. Okay, so we can't really go anywhere with any ideas until we know something for certain, but for the sake of discussion? Let's just make us a Mock Scenarios here, as if we DID have some solid information. Just to see how things shake out. Good part is that I was the one who thunk up this brilliant idear, which means I get to make the scenario. So here it is: Alex has found Jesus, and he's living as a street preacher in Albuquerque. In his van, down by the river. And that's why we ain't heard from him. The bills are being sent to a PO box, and he's been paying them with his hard-panhandled money just because he don't wanna fuck us over. But he gets Fi's letter, and says he'd be happy to sell the place. Lock stock and barrel for let's say $3000. Discuss.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.236}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 10:03:37 EDT (5 lines) bwahahahahahahaha then we all pony up whatever we can pony, and buy the place next question?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.237}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 10:18:29 EDT (11 lines) I have thought that if Alex doesn't want Fresh Press anymore, that we should just copy what we want and let it go. But then I began thinking about the money he has sunk into it and how much fun we have had, basically for free. And so I have moved in the direction of compensating him in some way. We could buy FP or at least kick in some money to repay him. This would only be a token, of course, considering all the work he put in. So we "buy" Fresh Press. Do we elect an admin? Or hope for a volunteer? Do we all chip in for the monthly payment (negligible, but still someone has to remember to write the check)?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.238}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 10: 33:05 EDT (14 lines) Not so fast, girls. Let's look at the Mock Scenario and take first things first. Nice idea about "ponying up what we can pony" Judy. But some can pony more than others. Now, I just looked at the Lifeboat Roster and saw that it held 13 names. Which comes out to $230 apiece to pay Alex off, assuming everyone in the Lifeboat wants in. Personally, I can do that no problem. The local golf course will pay me ten times that amount for firing up the weather machine in my garage and giving them rain from time to time this summer. But that number will change depending on how many people want in on the deal. Any other takers?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.239}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 10:36:18 EDT (1 line) i'd be willing to do that

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.240}: thanks, mom {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 10:37: 09 EDT (3 lines) mother still hasn't finished spinning in her grave over the car, the computer, the cpu fan, the trip to Iowa City...what's one more little thing...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.241}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 07 May 2003 11: 06:11 EDT (1 line) I can come up with $230, too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.242}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 11:17:00 EDT (7 lines) I think my own feeling on making a contribution is this: it gives me no 'ownership" in this place, all it is is a gift, something to help it stay alive. No more than a magazine subscription gives me any rights to the magazine beyond having it delivered to my door so that I can read it. what anyone else feels, is up to them.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.243}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 07 May 2003 11: 18:26 EDT (1 line) I think what/how John is proposing would amount to 1/13 ownership.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.244}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 11:20:41 EDT (1 line) <<shrugs>> no matter

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.245}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 07 May 2003 11: 23:05 EDT (1 line) I don't understand what you mean, judy.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.246}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 11:24:15 EDT (2 lines) whether it would 'buy' me a 13th share or not, i'd not feel I 'owned' anything. that's all

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.247}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 11:45:56 EDT (11 lines) Fresh Press, the inspiration and dream-child of Alex, would no longer exist. It would have the name but the guiding spirit of GenQ would be gone. So for me, it wouldn't be the same at all with new management. Alex had certain ideas about how things should be run. He rode shotgun to protect the site from what he considered vandals. Although I would like to compensate Alex for all the free fun we have had, I am not all that interested in buying Fresh Press and running it as a group. If Steve wants to start a new place, I would be glad to contribute time & some money, too. But it would be new territory.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.248}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 12: 05:45 EDT (33 lines) Okay, for the moment let's assume we won't get the whole Lifeboat Roster on board. Say three cheap-assed motherfuckers tank and we end up with ten People Good And True, just to make the numbers easier to juggle. That comes out to $300 a head to buy the place, lock stock and Motet handle. Which from the sounds of it might force Mother into another revolution or two, but ain't no big deal. IF we get ten owners. But it also means that if we charge a nominal access fee ($10 a month? I don't know) and had fifty subscribers, we'd be raking in $500 a month. Which means the initial investment would be paid back in six months. Well okay, more like six and a half if you count server fees. After that, it's pure profit. Minus $25 a month for server fees. Of course in reality these numbers will go all over the place, but the place would really have to suck pretty bad for all the investors to lose money. Plus we have the benefit of Automatic Sock Control. Like, if someone is so determined to be an asshole that he wants to pay an additional $10 a month to make a sock? Fuckin' A! Glad to have you aboard SeŇor Argyle! Once again, we're talking purely figurative numbers here. But they DO reside within the Realm of the Possible. And if Alex really IS living in a van down by the river, he might take less. Plus, if someone is interested in pimping the place out for ad space? More gravy on them taters.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.249}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 12:10:36 EDT (8 lines) I only come up with 11 people on Lifeboat that are hosts. Did I miss someone? I don't count Barry, do you? If you all want to buy Fresh Press and we get some clear signal from Alex, I would pony up $230 even though I am not all that clear on how this would work. Any volunteers to stand by watching for FX or Barry outings? (They both would come running if autoreg was turned on and no one was watching...)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.250}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 12: 20:43 EDT (20 lines) Here's the last roster I saw: withheld_2k@yahoo.com (withheld) carinthecliff@hotmail.com (skonk) yesdeer@specformliners.com (yesdeer) gran.borden@worldnet.att.net (thereseb) apalaisy@hotmail.com (azeo) birdy@acts.bc.ca (scooter) fiona.bowman@lineone.net (fi) moonbeam@musenet.org (nan) thompson@worldpath.net (judy98) readhead39@yahoo.com (readhead) smarterthanyou@operative.net (hannibal) phlbbrtn@io.com (phil) remarino1@msn.com (Rich) And they all have to be hosts to post here. Now, which one of us doesn't know how to count?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.251}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 12:35:31 EDT (2 lines) You already know who can't count. By the way, didn't Hannibal mention that he couldn't be buying a message board at this time?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.252}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 12:46:08 EDT (21 lines) try this, John--try for 19 {mihobbes}matt josehphson {karlsch}Karl {rich}rich marino {phil}Phil Burton {yesdeer}Steve {judy98}Judy {flipper}flipper {moonbeam}Nan {evanboy}(formerly tanya) {thereseb}therese (readhead}Cat {fi} fiona {azeo} angela {ratpack} gabe {withheld}Name {ov}robert oveson {skonk}skonk {rtyhurst}scooter (thezapdad}hannibal

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.253}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 07 May 2003 12:50:27 EDT (16 lines) I'd provisionally cough up $230. But I got some questions: 1.) What are the ongoing costs (eg we know the monthly charge to the webserver, but what are the costs associated with the terms of maintaining or upgrading the Motet license, &c.)? 2.) I assume there be registration costs for an LLC or non-profit, and yearly reports to be filed. What are the complete costs of that (including paying an auditor &c.)? 3.) I don't know diddly about corporate/non-profit structure in the US, but wouldn't we have to have directors and a constitution, and decide on such niceties as whether to be registered as a State or Federal entity?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.254}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 12:55:34 EDT (1 line) It looks complicated....

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.255}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 13:24:00 EDT (5 lines) "Which from the sounds of it might force Mother into another revolution or two, but ain't no big deal." What in blue blazes does this mean, Pelligrino?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.256}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 14:41:15 EDT (2 lines) sounds like he's channeling Rich and phantom in a richly textured layered effect

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.257}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 14:54:29 EDT (2 lines) Does Pelligrino have to get permission from his Mom? Hey, I can understand that.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.258}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 15: 18:25 EDT (24 lines) Well actually I was talking about Judy's mother. The one who'd spin in her grave if Judy spent $230 on an Internet Message Board. Get with the fucking program, people. Anyway, it looks to me like now we've tentatively got Judy (and her spinning Mom), Therese, Steve, Scooter and me. I'll just add Name to the list too, seeing as the whole LLC idea was his anyway. Almost halfway there. We're down to $500 apiece, IF nobody else comes on board and Alex wants 3K for the place. And Scooter, I don't have the slightest idea how things are gonna be set up as far as niceties and Legal Entities and blah-dee-blah are concerned. Actually it's a little too early for that anyway. This is just something along the lines of a Feasibility Study right now. The way I see it, there's not much point in figuring out the rest of the shit until we know who wants to get in on the ground floor and pony up some dough. Of course if someone WANTS to float some ideas on liability and corporate structure and who's fucking flag is gonna fly over the Big Tent, go right ahead. But I was trying to take things from the ground up, and see where they went.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.259}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 07 May 2003 15:23:04 EDT (8 lines) >Of course if someone WANTS to float some ideas on liability and corporate structure and who's fucking flag is gonna fly over the Big Tent, go right ahead. But I was trying to take things from the ground up, and see where they went.< Huh? I just like asking annoying questions...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.260}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 15:50:06 EDT (1 line) which you do so WELL

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.261}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 16: 02:59 EDT (6 lines) By all means Scooter, ask the annoying questions if you like. I mean, they're gonna need answering soonder or later anyway, and if someone has a quick answer for you? All the better. I was just pointing out that we'd do well not to put the cart too far before the horse.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.262}: Sunrise {rich} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:15:49 EDT (2 lines) From a feasiblity study point of view I'd put the prescribed amount of shekels up. I'm not sure why just yet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.263}: Angela {azeo} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:27:32 EDT (5 lines) If the money were required today, then no, I can't afford $230. In a couple months, maybe, but no promises. Do you really think people would be willing to pay $10/month to access this board? I have a hard time believing that. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.263}: Angela {azeo} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:27:32 EDT (5 lines) If the money were required today, then no, I can't afford $230. In a couple months, maybe, but no promises. Do you really think people would be willing to pay $10/month to access this board? I have a hard time believing that.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.264}: Angela slipped {fi} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:37:12 EDT (13 lines) I would be interested too. I was about to write a post about setting up this kind of venture in the UK, but it wouldn't be worth it since your rules will no doubt be different. I know I've read that setting up a business in the US is much more complicated and red- tape wrapped than it is here. Of course, the point is moot unless Alex tells us he wants to sell. Otherwise we have two choices: carry on as we are, hoping that the place won't just go poof one day when we're not looking, or make the jump to the lifeboat. With the lifeboat, it's all different anyway since it's Steve's place.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.265}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:47:38 EDT (18 lines) one last time: do we need a contingency program of some sort in case someone leaks this at Speakeasy, or Utne, or wherever FP people dip their toes? you can make book on the fact that someone will, sooner or later, if only by sheer ooops. There is always that one person we know that we swear to secrecy, and they get incautious, tell someone else, and suddenly we're in very interesting times again. I mean, people being people, they tend to panic, and a lot of them just hearing a rumor would be gone tomorrow, convinced the doors were closing any day... and spinning off from that, we also need, if the time comes, to be able to explain just what IS happening, if the joint is changing administrators, and why, directly and openly. maybe a topic in Current Affairs, Plaza, IAT. And Eve, of course

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.266}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 16: 54:41 EDT (31 lines) Well what the hell, the lifeboat is ready and seaworthy. Most of the kinks are worked out, and if we're gonna use it for an emergency bugout point? It might be a good idea turn off the home page, then put a message somewhere saying it'll be activated In Case Of Emergency. Just a thought And as for taking THIS place over, so far we have seven people in and a tentative maybe from Angela, with Fi deftly sidestepping the question. Probably because she's embarassed over the fact that they don't use real money in her country. But at this point the cost-per figure is down to $428 for the intial buyout, with a pulled-outa-my-ass-selling price of 3K. Not bad for a day's work. And Angela, the $10 a month figure was another one I pulled right out of my ass too. Remember, nothing here is based on math or reality or Public Opinion, it's just a place to start. But I do think there are a few reasons to think people might be willing to pay to some here. For starters, the quality of patron would probably improve somewhat (yeah I know, it sounds like I'm trying to breed the fucking Master Race or something) because people would be parting with money to be here. Plus the whole sock puppet thing would ease, if not disappear altogether. The reason it's hard to imagine anyone paying for access (to me, anyway) is because nobody has ever done it with a Motet before. But considering how all the other Motets have ended up, it might be time someone tried.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.267}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 07 May 2003 16:59:15 EDT (9 lines) I'm not comfortable with the idea of subscribers. At least not yet. there are a lot of valuable people in here who would be gone, permanently, because they just dont have even ten bucks to spend this way. also, we dont have a large enough database to support such a loss of people, either. The sock puppet thing wouldnt cease, we'd just be getting more money from them.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.268}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Wed, 07 May 2003 17:02:58 EDT (12 lines) Sidestepping the question, indeed. I'd pay in for a portion of ownership, if the business was structured properly. Clear enough for you? Or shall I inscribe it in blood across a nekkit pitcher and snail mail you a copy? I think that there is a possibility that people would pay a small subscription to be a member of a board... but, you would have to let them have a free trial for some time beforehand, to get them hooked in. And a lot more effort might have to go into making the board lively and ever changing; nobody wants to pay for something only to come in a few days later and see there's been no new posts.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.269}: Sunrise {rich} Wed, 07 May 2003 17:05:34 EDT (10 lines) I think it's a good idea that everybody has a stake in this. I would prefer that the denizens give up six pints of blood, (over a period of time mind you) rather than put up money. The blood would not only be worth more money-wise, it would put a piece of us in the pot. And Alex, if you're seeing, what are you doing? If you're hangin' you got some weighty 'splainin to do. Jood, really, creators of sock puppets prefer darning than buying new socks. Think on it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.270}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 07 May 2003 17: 19:22 EDT (2 lines) If access were $2/month, I'd buy 5 socks, one for each extremity. I wouldn't wanna mess with any more than that.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.271}: Sunrise {rich} Wed, 07 May 2003 17:30:05 EDT (2 lines) I thought it'd be $10 a month. Will that cut you down to a discordant toe?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.272}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 17: 56:08 EDT (34 lines) Fi, I happily accept you offer to write your acceptance in blood across a nekkit pitcher and snail-mail a copy to me. You guys might not use real money to pay your bills, but nobody will ever accuse you of Poor Sportsmanship. And to be honest, I have a tough time imagining people paying ten bucks a month for access here too. But I'm almost positive it would cut down on the sock puppet thing. I mean, it's one thing to create new logins left and right when it just takes a few strokes on a keyboard, but quite another when it costs money. You guys might not see it because you're not Avid Puppeteers. But running socks is probably not the sorta thing people would be willing to pay to do. I also realize that there isn't a big enough database to withstand all the people who'd leave if the place went to pay-as-you-go, but look at why the database is so small to start with. Auto-reg has been off for a year or so, and even when it was ON nobody really went out of their way to attract people. Hey, I'm sure there's dozens of ways to nay-say the whole idea, but here's how I look at it: If we're really gonna think seriously about going through all the bullshit of forming an LLC or some other sort of Legal Entity to make this place fly, we should be thinking about a way to turn a buck on it to. Or at least recoup any investment we might make. That way we'd at least have a tangible reason for all the arguing and discussing and pontificating and bitching and whining that gets done here on a regular basis. On a related note, I plan to con Junior into putting up the loot for my stake in the place. Came real close to making him donate $350 to the USO on my behalf not too long ago, so I figure bamboozling him into covering my end of this deal should be a snap.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.273}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 07 May 2003 18: 29:05 EDT (3 lines) If John Pelligrino is driving this car, you can not have my $230. Not even my $10.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.274}: Sunrise {rich} Wed, 07 May 2003 19:11:59 EDT (4 lines) I doubt if he'll be driving this car, Nan. Believe me, it's not in his makeup. Your friend, however, who would be chomping at the bit for some morsel of social integrity, would gladly take the reins--and drive us to a robotic purgatory.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.275}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 07 May 2003 19: 18:53 EDT (5 lines) Nope, he wouldn't "gladly take the reins" here, if by my friend you're referring to Barry. And thus far I have no reason to think skonk will give up the car keys he already possesses. What makes you think he will?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.276}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 07 May 2003 19:58:47 EDT (15 lines) We are getting things mixed up here. This discussion of buying Fresh Press is all about saving FP as we know it here. How we would administer it after we bought it I haven't a clue. Lifeboat is another project altogether and that is the only place where Pelligrino has any car keys. LB is a place where we can all go if FP goes dark. And maybe it could be a place to create if we can't buy FP for whatever reason. Who would run LB it and what the philosophy of the place would be (so far, anyhow) undetermined. I would much rather kick in some $$$ to a "thank you, Alex" fund than try to buy this place. It is just too complicated, and after all, we do have another landing spot. And, at the risk of repeating my little point, FP is Alex's creation with his fingerprints all over it. To me, FP with new management wouldn't be right.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.277}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 07 May 2003 20: 13:22 EDT (14 lines) Well not for nothing Nan, but if you're willing to participate on boards that Barry controls, I can't imagine why you'd have a problem on one that I controlled. Hell, that would be worth $230 just for the reputation boost. Of course if you read back to the beginning of this discussion before jumping in with your snotty little bullshit comments, you could have saved yourself from looking foolish. See, me driving ANY car was never an issue. And it'll never BE an issue. I've got no admin or server access here, and I have no reason to think I ever will. You REALLY need to find out what the fuck you're talking about before you start with the stupid comments.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.278}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 07 May 2003 21: 27:47 EDT (7 lines) >> You REALLY need to find out what the fuck you're talking about before you start with the stupid comments. I was talking about the Lifeboat, of course, where you do have the keys. Thinking, mistakenly, that we were talking about that. Thanks for straightening it out for me, Therese.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.279}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 08 May 2003 00: 33:08 EDT (1 line) Yes. Emphasis on the "mistakenly" part.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.280}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 09:32:07 EDT (1 line) OK, we are back in business again. Yay!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.281}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 08 May 2003 09: 42:57 EDT (1 line) Okay, you can relax those sphincters, folks.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.282}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 09:46:00 EDT (1 line) yay

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.283}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 08 May 2003 10: 40:55 EDT (33 lines) So let's review: There was a minor site outage during the wee (and not so wee) hours of the morning. Nothing major, but a couple points proven. One being that the The Lifeboat most definitely IS a viable emergency rally point, another that if this place folded up suddenly, we'd be pretty much lost as to what to do. Not exactly a falling brick wall or Fire In The Sky, but I think it would be kinda dumb to ignore an omen like this. As it stands now we've got a Lifeboat, but no way to get all the passengers aboard. Which is almost as useless as having no lifeboat at all. My suggestion would be that instead of all this other bullshit, we concentrate on what we'll do if this place really DOES tank. Like maybe what I suggested yestiddy in {266} ike I was saying yesterday in {266}

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.284}: Phil Burton {phil} Thu, 08 May 2003 10:41:28 EDT (2 lines) I have zero funds besides what gets me through rent and bills and food every month. So count me out of the money concept. Sorry.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.285}: 2 slips {fi} Thu, 08 May 2003 10:48:01 EDT (30 lines) Apart from the snipeyness of his remarks about Barry and Nan, I'm actually agreeing with Skonk here. If...a big if... some of the hosts were to pay into a corporate entity to run a board, any board, then there is the opportunity to attempt to make it work in different ways from this. Not that anything's wrong with this, per se, just that as Therese implied, different people in charge suggest different tactics. A subscription of some kind is a possible option. Yes, some people wouldn't do it. On the other hand, I can think of quite a few who might, if the cost wasn't prohibitive for them. Some people in the past might have suggested that nobody would be willing to pay to get connected to a bunch of random information out there in 'cyberspace' on other people's computers. If people value something enough, they will pay for it. Fundamental business. It all comes down to whether you can make the place valuable enough in whatever way, whether through stimulating conversation, humorous entertainment, sense of friendship/community or fringe benefits. I think also that as consumate net-types we have to be careful of being too blase about motet boards. Just because we're mostly tarts who've joined a lot and seen them come and go, doesn't mean that everyone sees them that way. I can think of a couple of people at FP, right off the top of my head, who find what happens here very important to them. It's the only place like this they visit. That sort of person may well think about paying a small amount for the value it provides to them. IF they perceive it as valuable.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.286}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:15:19 EDT (8 lines) How about we prepare to move to Lifeboat in case FP goes dark, and we are ready with a letter to patrons about the new site and asking them if they would pay $10/month to stay connected? If not very many people want to (I would of course and so would most of the hosts), then we begin thinking about buying Lifeboat and compensating Steve for the resources he has already sunk. And building Lifeboat into a new site instead of trying to remake FP with a new regime.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.287}: some ideas {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:17:10 EDT (16 lines) Not only is this place the only place they visit, in many instances they only visit one or two conferences, period. some of them have no concept of who the admin. is, or was, or even who the other hosts are. It's like living in an apartment building and never even knocking on your neighbors' doors. the thing that this also pointed up is the impossibility of, as John said, gathering everyone together. I would suggest we start thinking about how to tell everyone what might happen, before they hear it from Another Source. Have a topic for each of maybe four or five key spots that should take care of all the posters--Current Affairs, Plaza, IAT, Plaza.ME, and Eve, since there are people in each of those who never come out to the rest of the board.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.288}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:17:34 EDT (1 line) Therese slipped

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.289}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:23:02 EDT (1 line) eeek. We can't get at the userid list, can we? {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.289}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:23:02 EDT (1 line) eeek. We can't get at the userid list, can we?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.290}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:29:32 EDT (18 lines) Um... the buy-in was for FP if Alex wanted to sell. I've seen *no* financial requirements for using the Lifeboat (yet) and so theoretically so long as Steve's willing to pay the freight, we could all go there tomorrow and so could patrons... I'm feeling that if I were an FP patron who was suddenly told the site was moving, losing most of its posts *and* I had the privilege of paying $10/mo. for that, my reply would be "I don't think so..." OTOH: there's no contingency plan to contact patrons if FP suddenly flickers out... >eeek. We can't get at the userid list, can we?< Is there any way at the .Hostly level to compile a list of patron email addies (without having to deal with an announcement about possible future plans)?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.291}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:45:52 EDT (18 lines) read what I said, Therese start a topic in each of five key spots and let the posters talk about this, discuss it. We dont need the userid list at this point-- although I do believe I have one, and so does Steve--the point is, all you have to do is click on any one of the poster's names and you have their bio page. But even a list of users does NOT give out information like email addys unless they chose to have it listed. I can think of at least a half dozen people in here who treat their email address like gold bouillion, and never give it out. The best way is to be out there about it, at some point, rather than mailing people. That could be a logistical nightmare, for starters. And the emails would start rolling back in... Scoots, I agree, about the money. That's for later, if at all. Not now.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.292}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 11:54:21 EDT (3 lines) I would strongly advise we wait to hear back from Alex (or wait a reasonable period... to be determined here... of *not* hearing from him) before letting *any* of this out of .Hostly.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.293}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 08 May 2003 12:01:50 EDT (2 lines) I'm with Scooter. Otherwise we're looking at panic and rats and sinking ships and we'll watch FP just disappear as people desert.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.294}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 08 May 2003 12: 04:39 EDT (4 lines) I doubt it. The Gate folks have gone through this before. The folks here like the folks here. If they are told about a pending doom along with a backup plan, they'll rally, be prepared, and make the move.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.295}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 12:11:46 EDT (9 lines) I'd like to see a discussion of the possible results of putting up an "FP Emergency Planning Dept." topic in selected Forums... For one thing we don't really have our chops together here. I would at a minimum like to have some idea of what the first post in those Topics would say... I don't think we've done that groundwork yet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.296}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 08 May 2003 12: 28:53 EDT (22 lines) Shitty situation here, that's for sure. Personally I don't like the idea of putting an announcement up in "key places", because there's no telling if people might get lost in the shuffle because they simply didn't visit the right conference. Best bet would be to make sure EVERY conference (except the ones where Alex was the only host) had some sort of announcement. Or at the very least, something to direct people to a discussion of the whole thing in another conference. But that idea kinda sucks moose meat too. I mean, even though most people MUST be aware that Alex has been missing for almost five months, I don't think most of them have really considered the idea of this place suddenly folding. That'll prolly fuck things up all by itself. Having a form letter and an E-mail list would be nice, but it's already been pointed out that we got no access to the user list, and even if we did, a lot of those addresses are unlisted or don't work no more. I don't know, it's starting to look like we either need another option, or we need to pick the least worst one.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.297}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 12:33:26 EDT (1 line) I don't need to be told to read what you said, Judy.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.298}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 12:42:01 EDT (19 lines) I think the five conferences I mentioned take care of just about everyone, John, as to announcements. And I didn't mean this MINUTE, but it needs to be thought about. you would be amazed at how insular some people actually are about who runs what around here. phantom is still emailing me with photos to post in Plaza.ME, and when I say I cant he says, why not? Chessie is still blaming me personally for taking down her photo of her new cat in Plaza... There are people in Workshop who have never heard of Alex, have no idea who the admin. is, and aren't even sure there IS any other place but Workshop and Plaza. We do need to treat them like adults about this, at some point, too. Letting them find out the hard way, three days before the place tanks, is cruel. There has to be a certain amount of endless discussion. um, not unlike this...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.299}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 12:50:04 EDT (22 lines) Okay, I still it's too soon til we've heard from Alex (or are pretty much agreed that it ain't going to happen). So here is my last kick at this (I hope) for a while. Steve & Mitts apparently both have email lists of some vintage: that plus the back-up of asking patrons to email each other (some will have email addresses cached - that's how I communicated with a few people during the last long outage) should probably guarantee some continuity if FP suddenly implodes. Another possibility is a URL redirect on a defunct "neopoeia.com" to "Lifeboat" - that would obviously require some cooperation from the service provider, and agreement among ourselves as to legal and ethical considerations. A third which would be a hell of a lot of work would be to compile a patron email list here in .Hostly. A fourth is obviously the thing of opening this up in the Conferences. I still think 2.), 3.) and 4.) are premature...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.300}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 08 May 2003 13:03:15 EDT (4 lines) I am going to compile an email address list for people posting in my conferences (there will be plenty of overlap) and I hope you all to the same. This may end up being a waste of time but I can't think of any other step we can take just now.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.301}: therese, good idea {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 13:04:22 EDT (9 lines) Scooter, I do too I merely wanted to discuss this, since it's been sort of ignored until now the list we both have, scoots, is from last September, and not too many new people came in after that. Those that did all are known, and can be easily contacted, if not by one of us, then by someone else in here who knows them.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.302}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Thu, 08 May 2003 13: 49:21 EDT (2 lines) I have a partial list from Eve - Fi probably has some too. We've been gathering them for a couple of months.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.303}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 08 May 2003 14:54:44 EDT (7 lines) I still think you only need to start a topic, not notify all of them as individuals. for one, the feedback would be nightmarish. Imagine getting emails from 10 to 25 people in return, all asking for details...up to you, of course. But just remember, doing that means that if we all did it in our own conferences, some people would be getting two and three and four emails all about the same subject from different hosts...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.304}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Thu, 08 May 2003 15: 43:40 EDT (3 lines) It wasn't a big deal in Eve. I just put a note in the header asking people to please send their current e-mail address to either Fi or me, and linked our names to an e-mail window.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.305}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 16:27:19 EDT (16 lines) I still think it's premature unless there's an agreed-to cover story about why... Of course people are more (or less) welcome to do whatever they want where they're hosting, but if it comes back here that people are bailing or asking awkward questions, I have a very simple answer *until we've heard from Alex or have decided that we're going to proceed as if that's not going to happen*: "you made the problem... deal with it." I just ain't doing until then... And: if there is a mailout, it would be nice to see it co-ordinated through here... including a consistent agreed-on message. Otherwise what is this conference and this topic for?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.306}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Thu, 08 May 2003 16: 50:28 EDT (15 lines) Well, Scooter - the excuse I used for gathering e-mail addys was simple housekeeping. We've had several temporary outages on FP (the latest one last night), and whenever that happens I get a bunch of e-mails from people who think either the site has gone dark forever or they've been locked out because somebody doesn't like them. So I said, if we have all your current addys, then WHATEVER HAPPENS, you won't get lost. We can always contact you and let you know the score. No paranoia, no worry, no fuss, no fret. Just an updated list. Even then, I figure we have addresses for not quite half the names on the membership roster, but it's better than nothing.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.307}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 08 May 2003 16:54:18 EDT (1 line) Cool... thanks for the info.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.308}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 08 May 2003 17:21:14 EDT (6 lines) 'Cept, Nan, I have to tell you that no-one e-mailed me their address!! I'm obviously not the popular host since I got nuthin' and you got half the names. Of course, I do have a lot anyway for Eve since we had to collect them to let them in anyhow.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.309}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Thu, 08 May 2003 17: 35:45 EDT (3 lines) Ha! Fi, you prolly have more than I have then, because I didn't keep all their e-mail requests and all we needed for the conference was their FP usernames.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.310}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 08 May 2003 17: 45:12 EDT (15 lines) Well to be honest, I like the idea of an "agreed-upon cover story" myself. It has such a great Watergate feel to it, and I don't get enough chances to tell lies to large numbers of people these days. Problem is, whenever there's ANY sort of board-wide situation people start getting antsy. Then the discussions start, and the next thing you know either someone is fucking up the cover story or just clamming up and making everyone suspicious. But to be honest, if all the hosts start asking people to provide updated E-mail addresses, then that'll probably make a few tongues start wagging too. I'm sure that more than a few people are aware that Alex has been missing for months now, and any sort of Emergency Drills are gonna make people start asking questions. Even if they don't look like emergency drills.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.311}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Fri, 09 May 2003 00:12:26 EDT (1 line) *Hannibal recreates a pirate battle and tosses himself *overboard*

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.312}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 07:01:12 EDT (1 line) *mittens throws him a lemon-lime lifesaver*

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.313}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 07:04:12 EDT (8 lines) I would like to caution you guys against raising more alarms than is necessary: if suddenly two or three or more hosts start asking people for their email addys, little flags are going to be sent up. Especially when the same poster gets the same request from three different hosts. You start thinking, "waiiiit a minnit, missing admin, autoreg is down, now they want update their email lists?" Just something to think about

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.314}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 09 May 2003 09: 21:55 EDT (25 lines) That's some good thinking there, Judy. I know this for a fact, because I just said the same thing three posts ago. And if it was good thinking then, it's probably STILL good thinking. But to tellya the truth, I've given this subject a lot of thought and I can only come up with one solution that looks really good. That would be to put together a "FP Is Totally Fucked, Everyone Head For The Lifeboats" page, upload it to this server, and have it ready to go live if the situation ever calls for it. Problem is, we can't do that because we don't have FTP access to the server. And if the site goes down for non-payment or whatever, the redirect page wouldn't work anyway. Here's the way I see it: We only have two choices here. Either we do something guaranteed not to look suspicious, or we try to be sneaky about it. The former would be to collect E-mail addresses and so forth without asking for them, the latter would be making announcements like "Send me your your addresses" and "Here's where we go if things fuck up". So let's decide which one of these we wanna do before taking it any further.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.315}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 09:52:43 EDT (4 lines) i'm only reiterating it, muffin, because it seems no one is listening. maybe if we say it often enough someone will Get It. ah well.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.316}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 10: 16:21 EDT (10 lines) I've always been one to lay out the deal and let the shit fan blow where it will. We are dealing with adults, not kids who need to be protected from Lester the Molester. I suggest we decide how to say what's gotta be said sometime and do it. Plus, if you want a warm and cozy response from the common folk, ask them to help. I know there are at least one, maybe two folks in both Currents and .VC that would be happy to serve as email chain chairpatrons. Patrons pass email around anyway. That's how the gaters got here. Get them do the work. It's called management.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.317}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 10:33:33 EDT (1 line) exactly

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.318}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 10:36:38 EDT (12 lines) there are always going to be three or four who fling up their hands and faint dead away, no matter what you say or do there are also a couple of people in here, rags comes to mind, who HAVE no email access, as far as I know. If they do, they ain't tellin'. Which is why scurrying around for email addys means some people will fall through the cracks anyway, if you opt for a mailing list instead of topics People will want to discuss and discuss ad nauseam, and need to. It's up to the hosts to present the facts and keep them from spinning it into armageddon.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.319}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 10: 38:10 EDT (2 lines) Ragz is the one who pulled together the Gater picture page. He has an email and he would help with this, too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.320}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 11:15:26 EDT (1 line) I'm sure he would {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.320}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 11:15:26 EDT (1 line) I'm sure he would

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.321}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 09 May 2003 12: 08:45 EDT (30 lines) Hey, I'm all for approaching this problem using the Flying Shitfan Approach. Matter of fact, it happens to be one of my favorite methods of dealing with situations like this. But I don't have a whole lot of faith in the "it's called management" part of the deal. Because it's only called "management" when it works. If it doesn't, it's usually called "Nightmare Clusterfuckery". And to be honest, I'm a big fan of that, too. It's usually kinda entertaining, in a grim way. It also has the benefit of not looking sneaky. You gotta admit, even if nobody thinks there's anything strange about hosts suddenly asking for updated E-mail addresses BEFORE this place fucks up, it'll look like we knew something was gonna happen AFTER this place fucks up and people start getting E-mails. Basically the situation looks like this: There's a right way and a wrong way to handle situations like this, but we can't do it the right way. So since we have to do it the wrong way, let's do it the least wrongest way possible. Which is probably being up-front about the whole situation, and letting people know that the Lifeboat exists PURELY AS A PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE until we hear from Alex. Not if. WHEN. I don't think anyone will jump ship right away, the Power of Inertia being what it is. I think most people will hang out here at least until the place takes a shit, and if they already know where the Lifeboat is and what to expect, it's a lot more likely they'll make the crossing.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.322}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 13:04:05 EDT (16 lines) been thinking about this two things keep coming to mind If and when we do have to Make An Announcement, it should be one announcement, by one person (as in, designated admin), in several spots. Just so's we get it right. The hosts then get to be hosts about it. Two, we need to Know Things postively. Not, 'we think" or "we're waiting to hear"--positive statements, like, Fresh Press is now under new management, or Fresh Press will be closing its doors in x number of days, weeks...a and have the otherplace ready, in case it's needed. (okay, so that was three)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.323}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 13: 55:20 EDT (11 lines) >If and when we do have to Make An Announcement, it should be one announcement, by one person (as in, designated admin), in several spots.< Why? I'm not sure "Fresh Press will be closing..." would be viewed as a positive statement. Still, I think I know what you're getting at. So if we don't hear from Alex for another 6 months, are we going to carry on this conversation for another 6 months?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.324}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 09 May 2003 15: 08:14 EDT (18 lines) That sounds like the general thrust of it. Listen Judy, we have two choices here. Either we just sit around waiting for Alex to do something, or we do something sooner. If the consensus of the hosts is that we make all sorts of Positive Statements like "Fresh Press is now under new management, or Fresh Press will be closing its doors in x number of days, weeks..." then there's really no point continuing this discussion. We don't HAVE anything to base any positive statements on, which is the whole point here. Of course if we DO sit around waiting for Alex to do something, then we're pretty much fucked if this place tanks. We have a place to go, but only the hosts know how to get there and we'll prolly lose a shitload of people in the process. What was the point of establishing the Lifeboat if we're not gonna tell people about it before something happens to this place?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.325}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 15: 13:46 EDT (2 lines) This place is tanked already. We can't get new folks, we can't start new conferences, we can't get upgrades, we can't do shit.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.326}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 15:16:21 EDT (14 lines) exactly but we need to know first that Alex isn't coming back or is going to sell it or is going to pull the plug and that could take a few days go in whichever direction you want with this, I'm just throwing stuff out for you to think about, is all why I suggested a single statement from whoever is in charge, is that it carries more weight, and that tone of authority can do a lot to get people to listen. I am thinking, continuity, that's all

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.327}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Fri, 09 May 2003 15: 56:04 EDT (16 lines) WHAT could take a few days? Hearing from Alex? Yeah, that could take a few days. Especially since nobody has heard from him in five months. I mean, you're not really counting on the letter to change anything, are you? Jesus Christ, he coulda came here any time since Christmas and let people know what's what. Or at least sent an E-mail. But he hasn't. So what makes you think a paper letter is gonna be any different? The only reason we're even having this discussion is because there CAN'T be a statement from someone in charge, because there ISN'T anyone in charge, and there may never BE someone in charge, and the place may very well just cease to exist one of these days due to a software glitch or an unpaid bill or something ELSE that can't be fixed because THERE'S NOBODY IN FUCKING CHARGE!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.328}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 16: 12:15 EDT (6 lines) Nobody's in charge? Hey, let's wreck the place. FOOOOOD FIGHT

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.329}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 16:24:59 EDT (1 line) I gots the ketchup in the squirty bottles

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.330}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 09 May 2003 17:17:16 EDT (13 lines) Alex did something for Fresh Press on Feb 25th, right? I don't remember what it was, but he did some refreshing or renewal or whatever of the motet license. And he has so far paid the bills. He just isn't talking right now. That suggests to me that he is doing enough maintenance to keep the thing going until...something. So why don't we just compile a list of emails, keep Lifeboat handy, and carry on the best we can until something else happens. FP hasn't tanked quite yet. It doesn't look to me like the sweet souls of VC are going anywhere. Nor are the gentle folks of CA. Nor are the people at Plaza. I have run out of Bizarre Episodes for the moment, but Mike D. is posting disgusting jokes at Plaza. All is not lost.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.331}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 17:19:13 EDT (4 lines) good for mike. He can keep phantom company actually he's not that bad, as long as you don't leave the choke chain off

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.332}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Fri, 09 May 2003 18: 01:21 EDT (4 lines) >> So why don't we just compile a list of emails, keep Lifeboat handy, and carry on the best we can until something else happens. << Yes.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.333}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Fri, 09 May 2003 18: 08:56 EDT (1 line) Do we HAVE to invite Litt?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.334}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 18:15:09 EDT (1 line) we invite everyone. even (sob) Dale...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.335}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 09 May 2003 18:16:09 EDT (11 lines) He is a wacko, for sure, Cat. I just read that stuff in WellBeing. He and Lo ought to get together cuz someone or something has broken into their computers when they weren't looking. Kaaaaraaazee. Just think of the problems that would ensue if we had to start deciding who NOT to tell...I can think of a few I could do without but I don't think I would leave them out anyhow. Cat, you might want to tell the hosts a little background here so they all know why you would suggest this.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.336}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 18:22:06 EDT (6 lines) I dont think it's necessary, but that would be up to you two. This for me comes perilously close to gossip. It might also help to mention, however, that Bob has Parkinson's, and it affects the brain... Hack away

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.337}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 18: 40:26 EDT (1 line) bob who?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.338}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 19:27:24 EDT (1 line) bob tolins, litterati

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.339}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Fri, 09 May 2003 19: 32:36 EDT (1 line) Thanks.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.340}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Fri, 09 May 2003 19: 32:53 EDT (5 lines) Oh, the hell with it. He'll probably haunt me forever, no matter where I go. He's a sweet man, and not a bad person, but he's definitely showing signs of extreme delusional paranoia, and it's all aimed at me. I just get sick of defending myself against him and seeing posts about me all over the internet.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.341}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Fri, 09 May 2003 19: 33:26 EDT (1 line) Outrageous posts about me.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.342}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 19:40:05 EDT (4 lines) I do try to run damage control with him, cat, you know that. Often if I tell him he's wrong, he'll accept it. maybe not for long, but he will listen. I guess about all you can do is just ignore it, and hope he gets past it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.343}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Fri, 09 May 2003 19:42:20 EDT (2 lines) He thinks someone or something busted into his computer. Sounds like he is channelling lo.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.344}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 19:45:58 EDT (0 lines)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.345}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Fri, 09 May 2003 19: 55:40 EDT (1 line) thanks, judy. I can use all the help I can get with him.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.346}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Fri, 09 May 2003 20:01:15 EDT (1 line) no problem. I like the guy, actually.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.347}: Cat Ackerman {readhead} Fri, 09 May 2003 20: 36:08 EDT (1 line) So do I...when he's lucid.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.348}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sat, 10 May 2003 10: 37:11 EDT (96 lines) Wow. Lotta stuff there, not sure I can respond to it all. Gathering email addresses is good. Getting the story straight is good, but I don't like casting it as a "cover story". Treat people like adults, yes. Some will freak no matter what, yes. Basically, we do the best we can to come to whatever mutual understanding we can, either in here or through another medium, and we present it, warts and all. If you're worried about panic, be sure to do the best you can to make the mutual understanding we put together as solid as possible--the more we really know what we're about and are confident in that, the more that will come through in our open, honest, off-the-cuff, unscripted conversations with people Out There. Focus on what we know, for sure, as unspun as we can make it. Focus on what we're doing, as much as we can tell, again as straightforward as we can make it. Don't emphasize the uncertainties, but don't bullshit about them, either. ---- As for costs, the most valuable thing I'm willing (and hesitantly, at that)* to put towards this is my time and attention. yesdeer is probably wise in recognizing that the benjamins he's already put on the table is chump change compared to the mental real-estate occupied by all this. And that's not to minimize the fact that some can't pony up for this--rather, it's to recognize that if all you have to contribute is time, that that's very valuable, too. Ok, with that said, about all I'm ready to plunk down, no questions asked but "where do I send the money order?", is in the neighborhood of a hundred bucks, plus a share of ongoing hosting expenses. More than that is going to depend dramatically on the nature of the deal and what it is, exactly, that we are buying with it. If we "buy" the Freshpress, what exactly is it we buy? The name? It has its charms, but from a cold-hard cash perspective, I don't give a rat's ass about the name, unless a redirect for transitional purposes to a different site is on the table, and even then it's not worth much if we've got an alternate way to reach folks. The Motet license? That offends my open source soul, I'd rather give the money to burning Knoppix disks, to the EFF, or to the FSF. But I might be willing to go along with it as transitional move, to try to wean people off it, were it not for the fact that Steve has already donated his copy. That's $1000 and with 10 people willing to split it, I'm grudgingly in, whether it's to buy Alex out or to buy Steve out. The conference and topic structure? OK, here I can see it might be Alex's to sell, and it might be convenient to have and be able to continue to use in situ, but it might also be just as refreshing to take the best of it and leave the rest in a spin off. The user database, bios, contact information, and the posts themselves? Aha. Here's where the rubber meets the road. Try to think about this from a patron-only perspective, and not as a Privileged Mover And Shaker Host. How would you feel if Alex just announced that he was selling the whole thing to some random you never heard of, or worse, some collection of people you *have* heard of, including some folks you don't think too highly of? *I* wouldn't like it, and would want to know a hell of a lot about the deal. I would want to know not only that YOYOW was going to be preserved technically (which a straight out sale of the site as-is would do), but that the new admin was committed to respecting that, at least through some well-defined transitional period. Bottom line is Alex doesn't own the posts to buy and sell as he pleases. Which means he probably can't sell them to us, even if he *wanted* to. Maybe, just maybe, he could sell the company that has an implied, limited right to reproduce the posts in its current context, but I don't think any of us are in for hiring the intellectual property lawyers it would take to figure that out. Which gets me into the nymity thing, and the Skonk-Nan dynamic. Issues of identity were the seeds of that ongoing conflict. If we're talking about doing deals, people owning this or that, money changing hands, and so on, we *all* need to be willing to be out more than many of us are. As for my obscured nymity, the cat's half out of the bag anyway, with several folks knowing the bulk of my taxpaying name already. Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the modest barriers the obscurity my Freshpress identity might pose to the casual, google-impaired kook here, but as I've put it, I'm willing to "show mine if you show me yours". Question is, how far is each participant willing to go in this regard? And if people are willing to decloak, does it need to be done in some ordered fashion?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.349}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Sat, 10 May 2003 11: 51:57 EDT (1 line) Well said. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.349}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Sat, 10 May 2003 11: 51:57 EDT (1 line) Well said.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.350}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sat, 10 May 2003 13: 17:19 EDT (51 lines) Thanks, Nan. And I think we could see {273} coming down the pike, anyway, but it's good to have it out there. A couple of things I didn't get to in my previous post: About the email: It's good to have the list, but I'd like us to be careful with it, to avoid it being used in a way someone might reasonably interpret as spamming. That means pretty controlled use, sending messages to it rarely, probably only for messages that have passed at least an initial inspection and thumbs up/down amongst those here. And I think we should be ready to split the list into two pieces, a contact list and a do-not-contact list, and to be very responsive to any and every request to move a name to the do-not-contact part. As for $10/month: I think that's too high as a fee. I've been kicking around multi-layered models. For instance, 1) guest access, no fee, no posting, and read-only access in a few well-lit, well-marked, and well-patrolled conferences. 2) provisional member, no fee. Akin to the current FP model. Socks go no further. 3) paid up member, fee, with advisory voting privileges and some kind of Special Access. 4) provisional stakeholder, fee, with part of it accumulating towards some kind of share in the site. 5) stakeholder, with stake fully paid up. These are the folks who vote/veto. We decide how much personal info we want for 3-5. Do you let people buy votes at 3 by buying socks, even if that voting is advisory only? Or do you insist on some kind of one-person/one-vote through some form of ID check? For 3 and 4, I'm thinking a quarterly charge might work better--monthly seems too often, yearly too infrequent. But then again, I thought quarterly unhost rotation would work, too. I've entertained the idea of having some mechanism of granting complimentary access to one of these levels to take help include folks with tight budgets, but that starts to get hairy. Maybe better would be just to encourage folks who want to subsidize someone else's access to arrange something with the subsidisee more directly. We could arrange ways of sharing that cost among other people either in a topic or topic(s) somewhere, or in email, or whatever. That way, the financial transaction part would still come from the individual involved.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.351}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 10 May 2003 13: 37:21 EDT (17 lines) >And that's not to minimize the fact that some can't pony up for this--rather, it's to recognize that if all you have to contribute is time, that that's very valuable, too.< That's a fact, Jack. When I started my business, I incorporated Spec and gave away 50% of the stock to the a fellow who would do what he does best. We are paid the same amount, too. The money really is the easy part, but it's now worth any more than what effort it takes to make something work. >unless a redirect for transitional purposes to a different site is on the table< We can point a dozen names to our one copy of Motet if we want. And if we control ID creation, then whole communities of private access can be maintained.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.352}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 10 May 2003 13:40:19 EDT (13 lines) Name: If you start making it pay per view, call it what you like, then you are going to lose a lot of good, solid people who can make this thing work. I"m thinking of people who just don't have the bread to spend, even ten dollars, on a message board. They will simply move elsewhere. And there are people who object on principle. They too will move elsewhere. There are also people, like myself, who do not use credit cards, and if confronted with a subscription fee for almost anything, will simply sigh regretfully and move elsewhere as well. I think the general tenor of the board would change, and wonder if it would be for the better or the worse

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.353}: Angela {azeo} Sat, 10 May 2003 15:32:57 EDT (2 lines) I don't think Name's model is pay per view - it's pay for having a say in how things are run.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.354}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Sat, 10 May 2003 15:56:58 EDT (6 lines) Yes, I agree. I think it's an interesting proposition. There was a middle level there, equivalent to current FP access. People could chose to go no further. But, for those who do, add benefits; special member areas, etc.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.355}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 10 May 2003 16:12:20 EDT (4 lines) I understand that, Fi, I was just being a smart ass about the name-- but a $10subscriber fee doesn't give you a say in how things are run, as I understand it, anymore than subscribing to a magazine gives you a voice in the editorial content, is all

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.356}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sat, 10 May 2003 17: 30:00 EDT (45 lines) You know what I think is kinda hilarious? Everyone assumes that going to a paid subscription format is gonna drive more people away than it attracts, even though as far as I know, right now there isn't a Motet in existence that charges anything. So who knows? But judging by the amount of time and energy people put into these things, they ARE something that people will pay for. I mean, you spend five bucks on one issue of a magazine, and how much time do you spend actually reading it? An hour? Two? Great. Now, in the same month, how much time do you spend on this board? Judy, if you had to pay a dollar an hour for the time you spend on this board, it would probably cost you about four thousand dollars a month. I don't know I just can't shake the feeling that you guys are looking at this the wrong way simply because you're used to message boards being free. And since most of them still are, nobody will pay if they can just haul stakes and go to some other board. But almost everything I see indicates otherwise. Look at the amount of time and effort people spend bitching about what an asshole Kai is for kicking them out of Utne. Look at the amount of shit some people (Lorelei, for example) post on a given day. And look at the degree of tenacity some people show whenever an argument happens. Not me, but some people. On top of all this, there's a couple other things to consider. One is that we're not talking about peasants in some third world country, here. Generally speaking, anyone who can afford to have a Net connection in the first place can afford to pay a subscription fee if they think they're getting their money's worth. Of course they might SAY they can't but in reality? That's bullshit. Even ten bucks a month is a lot less than they pay for other entertainment. Two is that if people pay repetetively with a credit card, they can easily forget they're paying to start with. And three, NOTHING is worth anything until people actually start paying for it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.357}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 10 May 2003 17:43:22 EDT (6 lines) Does anyone here pay for any computer-delivered service? I pay subscriptions to 5 (last count) bookselling venues, but nothing else. On the other hand, I pay for more periodicals than I can count. So I am the type that pays for things that entertain me. And right now, there are about 15 people more or less that entertain me a lot and I would pay $10/month just to interact with them.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.358}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 10 May 2003 18:11:40 EDT (11 lines) <<Judy, if you had to pay a dollar an hour for the time you spend on this board, it would probably cost you about four thousand dollars a month. >> check my stats, John. I'm in here maybe an hour a day, two tops, at the moment. smart ass Therese, in order to get online at ALL we have to pay someone for a connection, be it by modem or DSL or whatever. just gettting here costs. Think about it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.359}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 10 May 2003 18: 41:50 EDT (6 lines) Therese, I subscribe to Geostrategy and Strafor, one is $8/month the other is charged once a year, I forget how much, $160 stick in my mind. I used to be a member of The Well, $15/month. Had the account for several years. Got tired of the place. It didn't evolve.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.360}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 10 May 2003 18:50:03 EDT (1 line) I don't need to be told to think about it, Judy.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.361}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 10 May 2003 18:55:35 EDT (6 lines) all i'm saying is that a lot of people pay a huge fee just to get online, and some cannot afford even a modest one. Some just skin by every month, like Flipper and a few others in here. Charging people who live that close to the bone even a 'nominal' subscribers fee would mean we'd lose some valuable members, people who contribute a great deal of energy and time.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.362}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Sat, 10 May 2003 19: 02:36 EDT (2 lines) Organizing and maintaining a mailing list or some other such duty might perhaps be payment enough for their access.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.363}: slips... {azeo} Sat, 10 May 2003 19:03:11 EDT (10 lines) >Therese, in order to get online at ALL we have to pay someone >for a connection, be it by modem or DSL or whatever. just >gettting here costs. Or use a combination of the library, school (ok, you indirectly pay for that one), or mooching off friends. I've never owned a computer, never payed a connection fee, never payed for a computer-delivered service. When I don't have free access I don't have access, period. If I ever get a real job that will change, but until then, that's how I get online.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.364}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sat, 10 May 2003 19:06:03 EDT (3 lines) I agree with you, Judy! I would hate to lose anyone due to $$$, but it is very difficult to ask everyone to pay "whatever you can." I know cuz remember the 60s....

--------

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.366}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sat, 10 May 2003 20:56:05 EDT (1 line) yay flipper smooches

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.367}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 11 May 2003 00:53:11 EDT (7 lines) flipper dude - you back... yee ha! just in tine for the .hostly confab of the century how you doin' finned one?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.368}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 11 May 2003 01:15:11 EDT (1 line) I think he just came by real fast, hon

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.369}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 11 May 2003 02:13:35 EDT (20 lines) oh pooh Anyway, I've been offline since Thursday (my ISP's server crashed) and missed a fine thrash in .VC as well as about 50 posts here (I'm posting this through a borrowed ISP so I still don't have email). About the making people pay thing? I think it sucks. About "multiple grades of heirarchy with and without $"?: ditto. FP works fine as it is (or was)... Alex is still paying for this. We got a lifeboat now. To all busy those making busywork for themselves and others unecessarily: relax. Please.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.370}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 11 May 2003 09: 09:54 EDT (32 lines) Actually, I agree with the part about how making people pay for for this sucks. Nobody has to try to convince me that it's a raw deal, because I knew it from the start. Question you gotta ask yourself is WHY it looks like a raw deal. The biggest reason I can see is because everyone is used to these boards being free. Because if they DID cost money, people who couldn't afford them wouldn't be here in the first place. But this is also the only public Motet I know about that's privately owned. All the others were/are sponsored by some sort of existing business, with nobody in particular footing the bill. But in this case it's Alex footing the bill, and we don't even know how long he'll continue to foot it. Now, he's been a real good sport about the whole thing so far, but if he sells out to a Group To Be Named Later, it's gonna mean a buncha dough kicked in by a buncha people to make it fly. So where's the return on the investment, here? And how do we pay for ongoing costs? See, it's one thing for Alex to keep paying the bill month after month, with some vague idea of capitalizing on advertising that he never quite got around to doing. But it's another to have a bunch of people kick in and buy the place with no idea of how to keep it going. It means that the place will still be nothing more than a hobby, only one that belongs to a Select Few instead of one person. A hobby that will require constant infusions of cash to operate. If nothing else, $25 a month for the cost of the server. It doesn't sound like much to some people, but for others it's quite a bit. So is this gonna be a business, or a hobby?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.371}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 11 May 2003 09:56:02 EDT (11 lines) I mentioned to Alex that he should consider a subscription, at the very least from hosts. He wouldn't hear of it, maybe because he wanted to have complete autonomy in running the place policy-wise. But if he ever does return, I think we hosts ought to insist that we contribute something to help make this work. Even only $100/month is enough to pay the monthly fee and set a little aside for improvements or whatever else comes along. Fress Press doesn't have to be a business to need a steady, if modest, inflow in money to keep it running.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.372}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Sun, 11 May 2003 13:29:30 EDT (23 lines) I hope that was actually $100 a year, Therese. <g> No, but Skonk is right. It's all very well to say 'can't work, won't work, lose patrons, etc' but without testing, that's just a supposition like any other. We lose posters all the time. Problem is, right now, we can't get anyone to replace them. A little churn rate in the population is not a bad thing anyway. As long as you leave a way for old 'regulars' who can't afford or don't want extra services to participate at the level they do currently, how does having extra value pay-for services affect them? It's just something they don't partake of. But for those who do want the extra benefits (and there would have to be extra benefits of whatever kind that we would have to put time into developing) give them the chance and recoup some of the costs of running the place. In a way, the payers subsidise the non-payers and get perqs because of it. This is hardly a new business model. Nor is it a particularly complex one. And it's a much better proven one (albeit not on Motet boards) than the advertising revenue model that was so hyped a few years ago.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.373}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 11 May 2003 14:06:22 EDT (6 lines) I really meant $100/month (that is, 10 hosts kicking $10 each month). This is somewhere in between Fresh Press being totally on the shoulders of Alex with every single penny coming out of his pocket and it being a profit-making venture bringing in real money. If we can't get the hosts to kick in something, we sure can't get posters to do it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.374}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Sun, 11 May 2003 16:27:45 EDT (2 lines) I misunderstood. I thought you said $100/month PER HOST!! Expensive, to say the least. {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.374}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Sun, 11 May 2003 16:27:45 EDT (2 lines) I misunderstood. I thought you said $100/month PER HOST!! Expensive, to say the least.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.375}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Sun, 11 May 2003 17: 48:01 EDT (25 lines) That's a dandy idea Therese, except for two things. It not only assumes that Alex is coming back, but that he'd accept the money from people on some sort of structured basis. Or even on an UNstructured basis. But if we DID know that Alex was was coming back, we wouldn't be having this conversation. And for all we know, he wouldn't take the money anyway. Oh, I have no trouble with the idea of helping Alex out with the costs of this place, but that's another discussion that can't really go anywhere until we hear from Alex. As far as having the place reamin like it is now for the unpaid subscribers with extra shit for the people who pay, I don't have any problem with the idea. But I AM kinda curious about what we'd offer to people who DO pay extra. I mean, the way it is now we have two kinds of patrons, the regular unwashed lowlifes and The Elite Hosts. And two of the Elite Hosts have already said that they can't pay for access. On toppa that, because of the way Motet works (and how everything is set up now), there aren't many options between host and patron. So here's the question: If the current patrons keep getting what they've always gotten, exactly what would the UberPatron be getting for his subscription fee?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.376}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sun, 11 May 2003 18: 25:15 EDT (13 lines) The ability to say that there is some evidence, beyond a lot of hot air or clickity-clackity typing-into-the-ether, that they Are Not A Sock. Paid access brings identity validation (which subject I note you are not addressing yet here, but whatever). Identity validation makes voting *potentially* more than a complete waste of time. Not that voting is a panaceae, but one of the biggest issues of any kind of voting system is "who gets to vote"? Maybe you make paid-access a condition of being on the panel for one or more conferences, some of which might be private, some of which might be fishbowled.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.377}: Name Withheld {withheld} Sun, 11 May 2003 18: 28:55 EDT (5 lines) jood, about the credit card thing: Do you use checks? And would an annual, quarterly, or semiannual contribution payment option make your credit-card avoidance less of a barrier? Is the credit-card thing more of a proxy for the identity issue?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.378}: devils food advocate again {judy98} Sun, 11 May 2003 18:48:26 EDT (18 lines) nah I have no identity issue thing, if I understand what you're saying, there. anyone in here is welcome to my phone number, addy, whatever. Flipper has it, Nan does. You do, half the hosts do. Dale does, god help me. We just flat out dont have credit cards. yeah, we use checks. I have no trouble that way. I do object at this point--in principle, at least--to the idea of subscribers, if only because you then have a clientele which is potentially made up of 'those who pay" and "those who don't"--with the potential for all kinds of shit that can fall out from that...plus you have just added in another layer of headaches what with "no longer not for profit" status, and bookkeeping... "well, after all, you PAY to be here, I DONT. I guess that makes you BETTER than me, huh" ( say that in your best Wendy B. voice...)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.379}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 11 May 2003 20:23:53 EDT (12 lines) Yes, John, I know my idea assumed that Alex would return. It was merely a hypothetical. Still, I am still betting that he will, eventually. He could be maimed or dead or incarcerated but that seems most unlikely. Unless I misjudge him completely, he would not let Fresh Press blink out without a word. He loves us. He will be back. I have faith in him. I am sitting here clutching an ice cube and typing with one hand. Burned my fingers while seving the soup (cue to attack the pity monger).

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.380}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 11 May 2003 20:30:33 EDT (11 lines) one thing you gotta remember, Alex has an ability few of us have, and it involves walking away from something completely: no lurking, no going back for a second look. Out the door, down the street, and gone. He is also very good at the half-answer: "let's see how it works' or, "maybe in a week or two"... that he wouldn't let FP blink out without a word is obvious, at least as far as money talks--he's paying the bills. that's his connection. I envy you that faith, I wish I shared it

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.381}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 11 May 2003 21:15:46 EDT (21 lines) I have been reading about message boards a lot in the newspaper and elsewhere. I must say, I am rather pessimistic about the future of the big, organization-sponsored ones like Speakeasy & Utne. There is a big problem with disruptive, anti-social posters, liability (lawsuits), and so on. Everyone applauded when that dreadful School Gossip board went down after a flurry of lawsuit threats, but let's face it--any of these boards is vulnerable to this kind of thing. Utne will be sued one of these days and so will Speakeasy. I don't know the details of all the bootings on Utne, but some of those people on the bootee list were keyboard sociopaths (no, not you, Steve, obviously). These people eventually turn up whenever an open message board opens. They cause huge problems. What individual or organization wants to contantly pay to broadcast sociopathic postings of some anti-social lunatic? These people and their Free Speech defenders eventually bring message boards down. I am a free speech defender, too, so I am no help there. The efforts to control "undesirable" posters puts a stake through the heart of the board and pretty much kills it. This is a kind of depressing.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.382}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Sun, 11 May 2003 21:19:23 EDT (3 lines) the only thing speakeasy is in danger of being sued for is Mediocrity in the Guise of Civility don't get me started

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.383}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Sun, 11 May 2003 21:21:57 EDT (1 line) Well, yeah, that too!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.384}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Sun, 11 May 2003 23:31:15 EDT (13 lines) >the only thing speakeasy is in danger of being sued for is Mediocrity in the Guise of Civility< You can sue for that now? Cool. I'm going to retire a trillionaire on the backs of the poor unsuspecting schlubbs running SE. Can you say "class action lawsuit"? Yaaaa-hoo!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.385}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Mon, 12 May 2003 05:11:04 EDT (1 line) I think this is the busiest conference I visit these days ... >8^P

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.386}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 12 May 2003 09: 25:55 EDT (39 lines) Yeah, is that sad, or what? And speaking of sad, Name? I think you might be placing a little too much importance on the whole Identity Issue thang. Even though it'll probably become an issue eventually, I don't think there'd be a whole lot of resistance to the idea of paid subscription onaconna the fact that it would make everyone identifiable. Matter of fact, I think that's pretty far down on the list of objections. Although now that you mention it, this DOES kinda dovetail with what Therese was just talking about. Once you have a positive I.D. on who's saying what, you have instant accountability. And the minute that happens, Legal Shit is bound to follow. Person A gets pissed off at Person B, and the next thing you know, they're filing a fucking libel lawsuit. Which is pathetic and lame, but I think everyone here has seen this dynamic in action at leaast once. Of course any lawyer worth his weight in back bacon (ahem) can instantly see how idiotic the idea is, just because of the Identity Issue. But once a board starts to charge admission, there's a clear trail leading to the person who's posting. Maybe not concrete enough to hold up in court, but possibly enough to convince some douchebag lawyer that he can take a swing at making it fly. Something to sweat? Sure it is. Because if nothing else, it would mean that someone with a few bucks can make most people shut the fuck up whenever they wanted to. Alls you'd have to do is pay some mouthpiece to send the person a nasty letter warning them of Impending Legal Action, and most people would say "Uh-oh!". Because even if there's no chance the other person could make charges stick, it would still mean getting a lawyer and whatnot. Yeah, I know this sounds impossibly stupid. I mean, who would actually go as far as hiring a lawyer and trying to bring a lawsuit against someone just because that person said nasty shit on a message board? Y'all can just answer that one for yourselves.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.387}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 12 May 2003 09: 28:54 EDT (7 lines) >Something to sweat? Sure it is.< The Well has been charging for years, and its members have been flinging shit at one another for years. Don't know about any law suits, though.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.388}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 12 May 2003 09:51:15 EDT (10 lines) Maybe if the board says up front that it is not responsible for the actual content of the posts and the hosts state right up front that certain kinds of behavior is not allowed, then it should protect the board from this kind of trouble. Barry's whole rationale for outing people was that he was being defamed in the internet. I have heard the "defamed on the internet" mentioned in other contexts, too. Which tells me that the legal case for defamation on the internet is somewhere in the offing- -someone out there is preparing for just such a case.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.389}: Angela {azeo} Mon, 12 May 2003 10:42:33 EDT (9 lines) A lot of sites use 'you own your own words' to mean you, not the site, is responsible and legally liable for what is posted. Not sure how it would stand up in court, but it seems to appear on a lot of user agreements. Defamation on the internet - I know of a couple law suits currently going on. (Defamation of a company, not an individual.) So far the individuals sued seem to be quickly settling out of court, even though it looks like they'd win, just because they can't afford the legal fees.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.390}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Mon, 12 May 2003 16:24:36 EDT (1 line) Well, if paid membership becomes de rigeur, I will bid you a fond adieu.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.391}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 12 May 2003 17: 03:53 EDT (19 lines) Merde, will vous stop sweating it, Hannibal? We're still a LONG way from charging anyone for anything. And it may never happen anyway. And Therese, just after I wrote my last post I was thinking about the same thing. Even if we never get around to charging anyone for access, it might be a good idea to put something on the registration page that says "By accessing this site, I hereby agree that I won't never try to to sue this message board or anyone who posts here over anything they might say about me. Because I'm a fucking grownup and I realize that they prolly woonta said shit if I never logged in, so I brang it all on myself anyway" Or words to that effect. Have Scooter translate it into Canadian Legalese or something. So it sounds all Offical and everything, but still doesn't say much. Of course it still probably won't constitute a legally binding document or anything, but it'll make people think twice before getting any sorta litigious ball rolling.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.392}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 12 May 2003 20:10:31 EDT (4 lines) on the other hand, sometimes people dont even THINK of lawsuits unless you mention it...like being told that one of the guests is bald and fat and hates to be reminded of how bald and how fat...and suddenly all you can think about is the fat bald guy...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.393}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Mon, 12 May 2003 20: 13:56 EDT (1 line) Now that you mention it, my attorney is a fat bald guy.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.394}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Mon, 12 May 2003 20: 44:49 EDT (8 lines) "By accessing this site, I hereby agree that I won't never try to to sue this message board or anyone who posts here over anything they might say about me. Because I'm a fucking grownup and I realize that they prolly woonta said shit if I never logged in, so I brang it all on myself anyway" Fabulous! The new FP Social Contract! It had to happen...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.395}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:08:06 EDT (46 lines) That was pretty good, Nan, but I could understand it, which as anybody knows, is unacceptable in a legal doucument. My suggrestion is: "Agreement Name & Address: ("party of the first part") "In consideration of my having registered at the party of the second part, I the hereinbefore mentioned party of the first part do hereby contract, agree and covenant not to commence a cause of action, or, notwitstanding the generality of the foregoing, any legal procedings against the party of the second part ("Fresh Press": hereinafter: "FP") or any of the parties of the third part (other registered users: hereinafter: "ORU"); and generally that I agree to exempt and save harmless both FP and ORU from all indications of intention to commence legal proceedings, save and except where (if applicable) I, as a member of .Hostly, am majorly p.o.'d at somebody." "This agreement is subject to interpretation according to the Interpretation Act of Prince Edward Island, and for further certainty, must be read in light of the Royal Proclamation of 1763." "To which I do irrevocably set my signature in the presence of: (witness) This day of , 2003 _______________________ signature _______________________ witness's signature " * You're welcome...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.396}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Mon, 12 May 2003 21: 18:52 EDT (3 lines) Pulled that one outa the ol' kiesteroo in jig time there, slugger. Knew you were the man for the job.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.397}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:24:49 EDT (1 line) I want that man to have my children

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.398}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:27:08 EDT (1 line) My hero!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.399}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:27:35 EDT (3 lines) I saw him first mine mine mine

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.400}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:29:11 EDT (1 line) Okay, he's yours.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.401}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:49:09 EDT (2 lines) ty boy youre no fun {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.401}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Mon, 12 May 2003 21:49:09 EDT (2 lines) ty boy youre no fun

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.402}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Tue, 13 May 2003 16:26:59 EDT (8 lines) Hot and heavy in here. Skonk, I'm not sweating (although your use of "merde" amused me to no end), I just made a comment based on what was being said. I do believe you still accept other people contributing to the conversation ... or have we finally cast aside all pretense and sham, gotten you a microphone and a spotlight, and let this become the John Pelligrino Show? >8^p *j/k*

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.403}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Tue, 13 May 2003 16:37:57 EDT (3 lines) that's funny, Hannibal and how astute of you to finally pick up on that *g*

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.404}: Sunrise {rich} Tue, 13 May 2003 17:07:14 EDT (3 lines) Ah, but there's not a single patron here who's not a ham--some are roasters, some baked, some even pickled. 'Tis the play that counts.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.405}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Tue, 13 May 2003 17:33:23 EDT (2 lines) Merde was perfect. Vous was also pretty cute. Hambones of the World, Unite!

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.406}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Tue, 13 May 2003 19:51:51 EDT (1 line) I'm no ham -- I don't even eat pork! >8^)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.407}: Sunrise {rich} Tue, 13 May 2003 19:55:32 EDT (2 lines) Your loss, Hannibal--in both the taste and the guiltless freedom of performance.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.408}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Tue, 13 May 2003 20: 10:53 EDT (9 lines) Agreed. But to be honest, although it IS a little distracting when other people try to interfere with the John PelligrinoShow, I'm willing to put up with a little pretense and sham. Just as long as it doesn't involve using shammy, pretentios phrases like "fond adieu" and "de rigeur". Like, you gotta draw a line SOMEWHERE, right?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.409}: Sunrise {rich} Tue, 13 May 2003 20:19:36 EDT (2 lines) Yeah, but that's not to say you don't yourself stagger across the border at times.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.410}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Tue, 13 May 2003 20:20:31 EDT (3 lines) table d'hote raison d'etre

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.411}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Wed, 14 May 2003 00:12:45 EDT (3 lines) Bienvenu au Canada... <tee hee>

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.412}: Name Withheld {withheld} Wed, 14 May 2003 02: 03:34 EDT (8 lines) {389} I think eBay just won a suit that basically held them blameless for some bad feedback one customer wrote about another. Also, I think that that bastard DMCA or one of its other, otherwise evil kin tries to cut web service providers slack in this regard, too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.413}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Wed, 14 May 2003 05:16:03 EDT (18 lines) Short summary of the position so far: Message sent to Alex (yes, Steve?) Waiting for any response (how long?) In the event of no response (likely), what do we want to do? a) nothing b) make a decision to move en masse (c'est bien, Skonk?) to the Lifeboat? c) some other yet-to-be decided option? If b) what do we need to decide and sort out, including No one wants a subscription-only service. Some would like to discuss some kind of added-value subscription level, yet to be explored further. Costs are involved if we move, either for Steve alone or for some group of us who would be willing. AOB

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.414}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 14 May 2003 07:43:24 EDT (8 lines) the other option (which might entail a fair amount of tool-using) would be to try to hack into the logroom at FP (yo, steve) and at the very least unleash the autoreg and the database stuff. That, after all, is the heart of Fresh Press. Would that be workable? I know you said, Steve, that you were "working on it' when I messed up with my password--I was in hopes you'd keep going with it.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.415}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 07:58:39 EDT (2 lines) Are you suggesting that Steve Deering knows how to hack into forbidden places?? Oooooo...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.416}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 14 May 2003 09: 10:18 EDT (50 lines) Personally I have no problem with hackery and autoreg unleashing and whatnot, but to be honest? I don't really see it happening. For a number of reasons. One of them being that the Lifeboat is on the same server (or at least run by the same outfit), and even though Alex would surely understand Server Management might not take kindly to such a thing. Okay, so in a perfect world they'd never know about it. But it's still a little risky for Steve. Of course guessing/intuiting/cracking the Motet password wouldn't involve fucking with server integrity at all. But it would still be a Questionable Ethical Move. So it might be a good idea to get Beth and Kirsten working on it. And Fi, the option list you laid out seems fairly comprehensive, and if nothing else it shows just how shitty the choices really are. If the letter to Alex HAS been sent, it won't do any good unless Alex responds to it. And if he's not making any attempt to get in touch with anyone through E-mail or on the board, I can't imagine why he'd suddenly respond to paper mail. Not saying he won't, but it seems like a longshot to me. Secondly (and more important because it involves me directly) the LAST thing I wanna do is move to the Lifeboat. Not unless it's really necessary. I think y'all might not fully appreciate the huge degree of bullshit and fuckery that was involved in getting THIS place squared away, and doing it again is NOT something to be undertooken lightly. That would be like moving because you lost the keys to the front door and gotta climb in through the window. Of course there's no good reason not to stay here as long as the place stays running, even though the place is gonna get lamer and lamer unless there's a way to get new people onboard. I think we all realize that stagnation is the prime threat here, and this place is probably gonna go downhill at a slow but steady pace unless some way to get new people in is found. Having said all that, I think we should prolly try to figure out how long to wait for a response from Alex before declaring him dead or whatever. Legally I think it's seven years, but I can't imagine that whoever is paying the bills will keep doing it for that long. Unless of course someone wants to actually track him down and kill him, just to elimiate the question. I'm willing to discuss that option too.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.417}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 09:19:46 EDT (22 lines) He hasn't even been missing for six months yet. He is still paying the bills. He has left auto reg off because he doesn't want to let in any of the creeps while he is on sabbatical. He knows this is a problem but he figures we hosts can handle things for a few months while he is getting his head together. When he comes back, it may well be to tell us all that the party's over and he needs to quit permenantly. But he will come back. Alex's M.O. has always been The Man of Mystery. And it looks like he is being true to his rep, at least for now. I say we wait and see. We might want to discuss the management structure of the new place beforehand. It is Steve's motet license, yes? Does he want to be an Alex kind of guy, with his own motet board and the power of god in terms of booting and whatnot? Or does he want a host committee to help, voting on major issues and perhaps contributing a small monthly sum to help defray some of the costs? There are probably other structures that would work, but my experience says simplest is best.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.418}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 14 May 2003 10: 33:00 EDT (9 lines) Actually I think Steve simply wants to rule with an iron fist, no matter what cost. Of course I don't have much evidence to support this assumption, but if you read some of the recent posts in VC, you'll see many Informed Sources pointing out that he's not the nice, low-key, introspective guy he used to be. According to them, he's a REAL asshole these days.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.419}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 10:38:18 EDT (4 lines) It is sort of okay for a poster or a host to tell people (a) shut the fuck up (b) no one in the universe takes you seriously and (c) you are a moron, but it may not work for a despot to do the same.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.420}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 14 May 2003 11:29:09 EDT (1 line) my feelings almost exactly

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.421}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 14 May 2003 12: 04:16 EDT (1 line) Oh, shut the fuck up. Both of you.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.422}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 14 May 2003 12: 36:46 EDT (6 lines) It's my opinion that come June 14, we either have the keys to this place or we open the doors to whatever we're going to call the other place. FP isn't healthy being handcuffed to the bedposts. So, that means we've got about a month to get ready. Am I going to have to get nasty with you clowns, too?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.423}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 14 May 2003 13: 02:31 EDT (1 line) {417} and {419} -- I agree, Therese.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.424}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 14 May 2003 14:13:14 EDT (1 line) {422}if you do we'll cry

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.425}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 16:03:02 EDT (6 lines) post:422. I agree (sob). John, no one, not one single species, in this universe or the parallel universes, past, present or future, dead or alive, male or female, drunk or sober, gay or straight, democrat or republican, bald or hirsute, ugly or gorgeous...and so on...takes you seriously.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.426}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 14 May 2003 17: 50:33 EDT (17 lines) Not true! Told a lady cop to blow me one time, while she was writing me out a speeding ticket? And she took me very seriously indeed. But back to less grave matters: Steve just suggested a June 14 deadline for the Return of Alex. He communicates with us by then (in person, on paper, his image appears in a fucking burrito, whatever) or we jump ship and set up a Real Internet Community with registration capabilities that can DEVELOP and GROW and CHURN and FUNCTION and whatnot. Well okay, that's not really what he suggested, but still. So let's have some Lively Discussion on the subject, you fucking mooks. It's only a month away.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.427}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 14 May 2003 18:53:48 EDT (1 line) I think you had my full attention, muffin, until the word "CHURN"...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.428}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 19:13:53 EDT (8 lines) Suggestion #1: Force Steve to tell us what kind of future he envisions for Lifeboat (Enlightened Despot, Rule by Committee, Committee voting only on important matters, Committee input with Despot veto, etc.). Pick one, Steve and see if we can live with your choice. Suggestion #2: Begin to set up parallel fora over in Lifeboat so there is someplace to re-adjourn in case of blink out or whatever.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.429}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Wed, 14 May 2003 19: 32:33 EDT (5 lines) Suggestion #1: I don't know. I'm thinking, which can be dangerous. I'll not dwell long on it though. Suggestion #2: That can happen without #1 being set in stone. And it's probably the easiest part of the whole thing.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.430}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Wed, 14 May 2003 19: 37:02 EDT (3 lines) Actually suggestion #2 was already brang up, but sort shitcanned onaconna it's such a slam dunk. Making conferences and whatnot takes a couple clicks, so it's no big thang.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.431}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Wed, 14 May 2003 20:20:47 EDT (4 lines) Yeah, but it's fun to make new conferences. I have dibs on the conferences I already have in Fresh Press. 'Cept I don't know how to create a conference (forum) or do colors and all that...Just point me in the right direction and I will give it a whack.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.432}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Wed, 14 May 2003 21:11:53 EDT (6 lines) usually the admin creates the conference, and we get to fill it in with the other stuff I"ve never gotten a chance to fill a conf: when I got here Dana had already decided which topics I would just LOVE in my conferences and that was that--sort of annoying, I must say

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.433}: Nan Williams {moonbeam} Wed, 14 May 2003 23: 54:44 EDT (4 lines) Motet admin have to create conferences and give somebody the host keys. Then hosts can do the interior decorating.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.434}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 01:02:06 EDT (7 lines) On one level I'd love to be able to start fresh with Plaza and Workshop, make them not only mine but the posters' as well. Let them decide, beyond a few basics, what they want. But the other side of the coin is, the stuff is already in place, and it has roots {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.434}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 01:02:06 EDT (7 lines) On one level I'd love to be able to start fresh with Plaza and Workshop, make them not only mine but the posters' as well. Let them decide, beyond a few basics, what they want. But the other side of the coin is, the stuff is already in place, and it has roots

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.435}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 15 May 2003 01: 13:20 EDT (92 lines) Not for nothing kids, but there's a whole lot to figure out before anyone starts setting up conferences and loading graphics and fucking around with niceties. Basically we DO have a new site to use, which Steve owns, and can do with as he pleases. Maybe he goes the Asshole Tyrant Route and clamps a tight lid down on Free Speech like he does in VC (just ask Steve Elliott, you don't believe me), or maybe he forms a Committee, or maybe he does nothing and plays it by ear on a day to day basis. Which is how I'd do it, but who knows? And who cares? It's his site, so he can do what he wants with it. Even go Native six months from now and leave us exactly where we are now. Only with a new URL. Anyway, I think there are at least three big questions here: 1.) DO we jump ship? And if so, when? 2.) How and when do we tell the Unwashed Masses? 3.) Exactly how much will the hosts and patrons have to pay for access to the new place? HAR HAR HAR! Just kidding on that last question. Wanted to see if Hannibal was gonna say "Mon dieu! Ah weel not pay, and you cannot mek me!"

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.436}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 04:52:59 EDT (1 line) zut alor, babeee

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.437}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 15 May 2003 06:02:07 EDT (6 lines) All good discussion points. One detail, though, if we're gonna set a deadline for a response from Alex (which makes sense), we ought to try to let him know. Yes, I know he's not responding, but neither is e-mail bouncing back (right?) so we ought to at least make the gesture of informing him out of courtesy. (I'm big on courtesy to Alex, had you noticed? It's something to do with his hypnotic eyes.)

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.438}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 06:29:21 EDT (9 lines) He may be reading his neopoeia mail, and ignoring pleas for help he may be ignoring his neopoeia mail knowing full well what is in it he may have just walked away from all of it At this point the courtesy should be coming not from our end but his. he's been informed, Fi, both in snail mail and I"m sure in email. And it's been a week since that letter was sent.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.439}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 15 May 2003 08: 41:06 EDT (43 lines) Indeedly-do. Listen, I'm the last person who wants to steal this place out from under Alex, or jump ship, or do anything that would be better done with his cooperation. The way I see it, we've been playing in this sandbox at his pleasure for two years or so, and he's not only paid all the bills without asking for a dime, he's put up with a LOT of shit. I should know. A lot of it was mine. But still, he's been gone since before Christmas. And at this point I think we've done just about everything we can be expected to do short of hiring a private dick to track him down. I'd do it myself, but I'm more of a Public Dick. So we really have to decide whan we're gonna call the whole effort a wash. I mean, if he won't post here, or answer E-mail, or respond to snail mail, or respond to phone calls, or do ANYTHING to let people know what's going on, what else can we do? Personally I don't think he'll have any big problem with us doing whatever we decide to do, and here's why: Way back before this place existed, when a bunch of us were ditching Speakeasy, Alex was intensely vocal about the mainest problem he had with their setup. Which was the fact that it was run by an Absentee Landlord. Josh Mehigan was running the place, but he only showed up once in a blue moon, and never wanted to do anything about the problems we had. So the place ended up being a real drag. End result was that a lot of people bailed. Including Alex. All because of the whole Absentee Landlord thing. But unfortunately, that seems to be exactly what he's turned into. Now, I'm not saying "shame on him", since we have no idea what his story is. He may very well be bouncing off the walls in some fucking loony bin with his hand stuffed into his shirt, telling people he's Napoleon Bonaparte. In which case he could be forgiven for paying little attention to this place. But he's still an absentee landlord. And if he found this sorta thang intolerable while he was at SE, I doubt he'd expect us to put up with it now.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.440}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 15 May 2003 09:25:56 EDT (5 lines) All of what you say is true, John. I want to wait until June 14 before leaving here. Setting up new conferences is easy, you say--so let's worry about that later. The only thing that needs deciding is how the new place will be structured. And we are waiting to hear Steve's thoughts on that.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.441}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 10:07:42 EDT (1 line) I dont want to leave here

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.442}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 10:08:09 EDT (4 lines) I never realized just how much until just now sorry

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.443}: Therese Borden {thereseb} Thu, 15 May 2003 10:21:50 EDT (5 lines) It would be so neat to be able to move the text of our conferences to the new place. My own posts don't mean that much to me. But when I look back at some of the interactions between the people here, I hate the idea that so many wonderful conversations will vanish.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.444}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 10:27:00 EDT (1 line) then start saving them now, I think

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.445}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 15 May 2003 10:54:53 EDT (1 line) Judy, what DO you want to do? Seriously.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.446}: Scooter {rtyhurst} Thu, 15 May 2003 11:23:56 EDT (52 lines) An interesting question to Mr. Rietta or Ricotta or whatever he calls himself is "has he had any communication with Alex aside from dough turning up." El Senor Q is still apparently shovelling currency to the webserver. Why? With the intention that we all scuttle like verminous rodents off'n a sinking ship? I think not. Prolly so he can preserve his options, including returning here... or not... At some point that exercise is going to produce a collective frustration that makes this place unworkable. I'm not quite there yet. I'm okay with June 14 if it's the deadline to start serious planning about how to make a move. As a date to sail away from FP while it's still floating? I don't think so. Even with the frustrations of registration off and no admin and graphix busted, it still basically works. If Alex *is* paying the bills I think we owe him the courtesy of at least one more communication before abandoning ship. And that communication would go something like this: "Dear Alex, Not having heard from you, we the hosts of FP have collectively decided to move our hosting duties to "LifeBoat of Horror" [note: we can't move FP: we don't own it...] if we have not heard from you by [whatever date]... [&c. &c.] [signed by all of us] Without that (or something like it), we're not giving Alex notice of our intention *and* we don't even seem to have a common vision of what we might be moving to yet...

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.447}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 11:33:30 EDT (12 lines) what I want to do is stay here. Make this work. We have all our toys around us, and it's familiar. I didn't realize until this morning just how familiar, and how special, this particular place is to me. If there is a new place, I'll probably go, at least for awhile, maybe for longer. This place, for very personal reasons, is important to me. I understand the necessity of maybe moving away from it, of course. But a piece of me won't be making the move. you guys decide what to do. I can't

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.448}: John Pelligrino {skonk} Thu, 15 May 2003 12: 26:43 EDT (24 lines) I have an alternative version of your letter, Scooter:

---------------------------------------------------------- Dear Absentee Motherfucking Landlord, Your tenants are pissed. Either show your login, send a letter, drop a dime, or give someone the Motet password. It's been five months since you communicated with anyone from FP, and frankly? We're getting sick of this shit. Just as sick as YOU were when the Speakeasy was run by the same sort of non-management. Now go panhandle a couple bucks, hit some Internet Cafe, and tell us what the fuck is going on. Or else we're moving out. Love, Fuckface and the Fuckeroos

--------------------------------------------------------- I think a little profanity gives it a much-needed Sense of Urgency, don't you?

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.449}: Angela {azeo} Thu, 15 May 2003 12:42:20 EDT (8 lines) Even if we wanted to, we can't close this place down and move everyone over to the lifeboat on June 14. As long as the bills continue to be paid, this site will be here. Instead, June 14 we could open the lifeboat to everyone else at FP. What will probably happen is some people will check it out, most people who post here will continue to post here, and there may be a slow shift over to the lifeboat as new people arrive there.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.450}: Fiona Bowman {fi} Thu, 15 May 2003 12:50:41 EDT (17 lines) I think we all want to fix FP, Judy. I think maybe some of us are just getting suspicious that it ain't ever going to happen, and frustrated that we can't get things improving. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, that with autoreg off, this place WILL wither on the vine, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but someday... already conversations are getting stale and flames reduced to 'did not, did too' level. If we can't fix FP we HAVE to decide whether to do anything about it. And I agree with Scooter's last para; we have tried to contact Alex, but we haven't given him notice of our intention, nor have we even decided what that is. BTW, this may be my last post until Monday at least; going to be at home until then and don't know when I'll get that thang sorted out.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.451}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 12:57:03 EDT (1 line) good luck with it, Fi. I know how frustrating that can be

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.452}: Steve Deering {yesdeer} Thu, 15 May 2003 13: 34:06 EDT (10 lines) >Even if we wanted to, we can't close this place down and move everyone over to the lifeboat on June 14. As long as the bills continue to be paid, this site will be here.< Wrong. Almost all the conferences topics could be deleted by the hosts, or the conferences could be made read only with topic creation turned off, or topocs could be moved to a private conferece, or the ID list could be dropped into observer boxes. I could probably think of several other ways to wreck this place if I thought about it another 30 seconds.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.453}: Angela {azeo} Thu, 15 May 2003 13:39:04 EDT (5 lines) heh. I thought of that before hitting 'post'.... but since we couldn't do that with every conference (there are several which have missing hosts), I decided to let it go. yeah, we could wreck the place. but we can't do a clean shutdown.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.454}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 15:17:40 EDT (1 line) that's assuming the conf. hosts would be willing to do that

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.455}: Name Withheld {withheld} Thu, 15 May 2003 21: 19:35 EDT (17 lines) Angela is wise. It would still be here, even if it was smoking wreck. I'm for opening lifeboat to the public on June 14, but other than that, it feels like a forced deadline. 6 months is a nice round number, but so freaking what? Summer is ebb season online, anyway. Online stuff goes into semi-estivation while people who don't live in Southern Freaking California enjoy being out-of-doors. If I'm gonna phosphor burn my eyeballs, I might as well do it when its dark outside three-quarters of the time and when the tomatoes don't need tending. June is Not A Good Month For Me.

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.456}: Mittens the Merciless {judy98} Thu, 15 May 2003 23:24:02 EDT (1 line) I"m beginning to get that impression, Name

-------- {InfoArchiTexture.Hostly.64.457}: Hannibal Tabu {thezapdad} Fri, 16 May 2003 05:02:54 EDT (4 lines) Skonk -- if I read this topic as much as ... well, as much as it seems everybody else does, I suppose that'd have bothered me. I've made my position clear, and there's no need for me to reiterate it. Especially not in a hammy French accent. >8^)